A constructive post - Blue Tracker

#0 - Dec. 8, 2006, 9:30 a.m.

Seeing as how a few of the other threads regarding priestly woes have been locked/deleted, I thought it would be a good idea to play the game by their rules, and start a thread addressing our concerns in a logical and well thought-out manner. Please post only constructive criticisms/suggestions/concerns, and keep the immaturity to a minimum. Now onto my concerns:

PVP
1. Survivability: Walking around in glowing armor with a Benediction on my back seems worse than having a hunter's mark over my head. I am not saying a priest should survive an assist train, but outside of perhaps a 41 point dispellable disc talent, I have 1 "oh crap" ability that is now also dispellable. It's tough to keep melee at bay and spend less time healing myself, than other people. This could also be the "hero" mindset of most pug pvp-ers, and their inability to assist the support classes when theyre in need.

2. PvP healing in general: unless you go into a bg with the knowledge of who you will be pumping mana into the entire time, healing in battlegrounds is downright painful. People screeching at you from across the map for not healing them, coupled with a million bouncing blue bars if you happen to be in AV using ctrl+v, healing can be a tad frustrating. The only ways i've found to alleviate this thus far was to either stick with a person to heal, or tab target assist. Not efficient, but hey, gets the job done.

PVE
1. Mods (yeah, sorry, dead horse): In 5, 10, and even 20 man content decursive never seemed all that essential, but still bosses and mobs never really threw out debuffs that were all that painful. But, in 40-man content post MC, decursive proved all to essential for helping things go along a lot smoother. Sure, there will be the naysayers who are convinced that healers like me need to "L2P", but personally having experienced endgame from ZG to the last few bosses of Naxx (don't let the guild tag fool you, I have seen my fair share of scripted encounters), I enjoyed actually seeing some of the content that the other classes got to enjoy, rather than staring at 40 boxes, seeing if they go red, green, yellow, or whatever. Sure you can assign healers and curers to groups and what not, but mods such as decursive and emergency monitor allowed healers to pick up the slack or adjust to deaths a lot faster than without them.

2. Itemization: I believe that mages/locks should get priority when it comes to damage gear, but it would have been nice to show a little holy priest dps love for those poor folks that go endgame spec for the good of the guild. Your Staff of the Shadow Flame, Crossbow of Smiting, Ashkandi are great outside of raids, but I dont see myself healing anyone to death anytime soon (unless its the Nef priest call and I am feeling particularly vindictive).

3. Deaths and downtime: I remember wiping in Naxx a lot.... A LOT when my guild was first learning the instance. Well, of course Priests and Shaman/Pallies are the first ones up. While the dps is out getting a drink, going to the bathroom, watching a bit of TV, what was I doing? Rezzing other priests, drinking, buffing, buffing, rezzing, rezzing, buffing, drinking, rezzing, buffing, etc. So, not only do I have to pay the most attention during an encounter, but between attempts as well. Sure, it's certainly part of the job, but one mass rez that requires an expensive reagent that takes 1 min to cast would be just fine with me.

These are just a few of my concerns, nothing big, but in time it all adds up.

Tseric

#10 - Dec. 8, 2006, 5:59 p.m.

Thank you for keeping it constructive.

Tseric

#13 - Dec. 8, 2006, 6:02 p.m.

Q u o t e:
...and?

How about you not read over my shoulder, eh? It's rude.

Tseric

#20 - Dec. 8, 2006, 6:12 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Hey Tseric, just to warn you, you're probably going to get flamed endlessly.

I've been posting actively on these forums for over a year. You think I don't know that?

Q u o t e:
Can I ask what you're looking for?

I'm getting acclimated to Priest issues. I realize I am a sharp guy, but true knowledge is knowing the limits of our knowledge.

I am not intimately familiar with every class in this game, so I am getting a lay of the land. I'll provide what information I have and ask questions as necessary.

In previous attempts at discussion on other class forums, we've gotten off-topic too quickly. I don't want to hear about what you think of me. I don't care. What I care about is getting an understanding of the legitimate issues of the class and what the design plan might be for those, should there be one.

I've put up with flamers and QQers and trollers long enough. I'm changing approach. Should you attempt any of the negative activities I've outlined, I will not be lenient as I have in the past.

Just giving fair warning.

Tseric

#52 - Dec. 8, 2006, 6:45 p.m.

Q u o t e:
So what happened to that stuff? The Champion stuff in particular would have added alot of extra depth and utility to the class. And the debuffs would be nice as we really have none... which leads to my next question...

That stuff was nacent design ideas that never really worked out in play testing. I realize it sounds cool with only some datamined information and a twinkle in the eye, but here's the jist:

A lot of priest are taking issue because of whack-a-mole and dependency issues, right?

The way the Champion idea was working out was merely solidifying the fact that you would be more dependent on someone else playing with you. It would be absolutely necessary for a priest to be grouped in order to use any of those abilities. This basically worked counter to our design philosophy of being able to play independently and having classes as self-contained as possible.

Tseric

#72 - Dec. 8, 2006, 6:57 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Why does everything about the priest class have to devolve into either doing damage (lolsmite/shadow) or refilling health bars?

Because you are one of the pure role classes in the 'Holy Trinity'. The fact that a healing class even has the option to DPS shows the sort of blending we have tried to do with the trinity, but at the same time, we don't want to make classes overlap too much. It takes away flavor and, at the core of it, is unnecessary in terms of game play. Having a number of character types that do the same thing makes those types more and more indistinguishable from each other.

I realize Priests are in a position that involves some stricter rules for behavior than other classes. This is not only because of this game's design, but with the overall structure of these types of games.

Tseric

#76 - Dec. 8, 2006, 7 p.m.

Q u o t e:

That is correct, however I don't mind wack-a-mole in raids, because that's what raiding is for a Priest... that is our job. When we leave those raids, I want to be able to do somehting else other than wait for the next raid.

Ok, I can dig that. However, whenever I mention options that lend themselves to that end, people tend to take issue.

"Why should I have to respec just to PvP?"

Well, because it is a completely different situation and it can not be guaranteed in this game that one spec fits all environments or circumstances. Again, I can see that there is a stark contrast between raid healing and melting faces, but to have both in one package is just not going to happen.

The class, as a whole, can lend itself to different situations through different specs. But, you might have to respec. And that is an intended game decision.

Tseric

#85 - Dec. 8, 2006, 7:06 p.m.

Q u o t e:

With regards to us being a pure class.....

If we were the only class in the game that could really heal, yes, and that is the way it used to be for raids, really. However, hybrids have seen a lot of healing additions that make them much more efficient.

If priests were considered on the same level as the other healing classes, and every healing class was described as a "hybrid" I actually think things might improve for priests.

We sacrifice armour for the ability to heal "the best". But that trade off is not seeming worth it anymore, or accurate.

All I can say to that is that other classes have to make completely different trade-offs for those healing benefits. Sure, hybrid classes have seen healing buffs because that is one approach to making them more raid viable, which has been an issue brought up many times.

Also, consider that hybrid classes are more locked into single specs by gear. The items needed to reinforce particular stats can become almost irrelevant with respeccing.

Tseric

#94 - Dec. 8, 2006, 7:11 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Don't these statements contradict each other?

No, they don't. My comments about respeccing illustrate the fact that a priest, by itself, can make a choice to use another general type of ability and be self-sufficient. How many people level up with Shadow spec, then switch to Holy for raid healing?

Tseric

#95 - Dec. 8, 2006, 7:12 p.m.

Q u o t e:

The sacrifice they make is spec, and that can be marginalized.

The gear I can get multiple sets of for varying tasks.

Ok. You go tell the Shaman that. heh. ;)

Tseric

#111 - Dec. 8, 2006, 7:20 p.m.

Q u o t e:

This is not entirely true Tseric. The fact is that PvP and PvE do NOT have to be mutually exclusive. You may design your trees so that each one has a somewhat clear focus in either area if one were to spec heavily into them. However, through gear, well-thought and placed talents, and a bit of thinking on the player's part, any character should be able to make the crossover. Putting survivability talents low in certain trees allow people to PvP while the rest of their spec may be focused on raiding. Pre 2.0, I used to be 14/5/32, which is not in any way a raid spec. In fact, it was a damage/healing PvP hybrid spec. However, talents like healing focus, inner focus, imp renew, shadow affinity, meditation, and even spirit tap helped me in raids, while i did excellent in PvP. There's no reason why talents, skills, and gear can't be set up in this fashion as well. "Cookie Cutters" shouldn't be the "be all, end all" specs, but they've recently become that way.

The key words to designing are "effectively" and "efficiently." I should be able to work my talents and gear into an "effective" PvP and Raid play, even though I won't be nearly a "efficient" in either one.

I don't disagree with pretty much any of your comments. My point was, it can't be guaranteed that there will be a one-size-fits-all spec. Yes, some classes have come to rely on 'cookie-cutters' and we have made attempts to break those up. Look at Warriors for a prime example. A strong cookie-cutter build that we basically had to reign in and spend time and focus on developing Protection as a viable build.

I very much agree with your distinction of 'effective' and 'efficient'. The only issue is when everyone wants efficient and effective for every tree and for every situation. It becomes an issue of min/maxing. While the option may be there to do something effectively, guild leaders are looking for efficient and that then becomes our problem or a design issue.

Tseric

#145 - Dec. 8, 2006, 7:39 p.m.

Q u o t e:
If you are stuck on the "Priests should be the best healers possible"

Then you might as well sacrifice independence, PvP, and any viability other than healbotting.

Priests have had a shadow tree all along, which was more viable for PvP damage and healing than the holy trees previously, so despite other MMOs and lore Priest =/= Healer and further =/= free HK if alone.

How can you substantiate, (in PvE) that you aren't best anyway? Did guilds stop taking priests for PvE?

Thank you. This outlines an important trade-off and can seperate some of the reasonable folks from those who want their cake and to eat it, too.

A lot of this "Priests aren't the best healers" that I'm hearing is really subjective. If I told the devs that, I'd like to think I have a good enough relationship with them that they wouldn't laugh at me. Rather, they would provide hard data that proves otherwise.

It is simply mathematically possible with the allowed arrangements of specs and itemization and play style for Priests to provide the best healing in the game. However, it is dependent on the player to spec, gear and cast appropriately to acheive that.

Same goes for anything relating to "Everyone else got awesome talents and ours are lackluster."

I've heard that last word flung around so many times. A lot of it is simply 'grass is greener' mentality.

Now, I'm not dismissing all of it out of hand, but I do want to direct your attention to certain notions which might run parallel to this.

If Priests are the best healers, they are likely to be used as a baseline for healing. The same holds true for Rogues with DPS testing.

If the best Priest spec is used for a baseline, why would you then change it a lot with "new, shiny abilities?"

The strong aspects of a class are simply going to see less buffing than weaker aspects of a class. To be buffed less than another class doesn't necessarily mean that 'the devs love that class more at Christmas time, what with all the neat toys they got', but rather could mean that 'the class is strong in this aspect and we don't want to overdo it and have to nerf them later.'

Just some thoughts on the topic.

Tseric

#152 - Dec. 8, 2006, 7:40 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Tseric, if you are still here: It would probably be more fruitful for you to read the old priest threads. There are actually many that are surprisingly helpful, eloquent, and informative.

You're like a celebrity that everyone is swarming, and we're excitable because of it. Trust me though, just a quick peek at the threads with the most posts on them in this forum will probably answer all of your questions better than we can in this thread at this moment.

Thank you very sincerely for your time and your effort.

1.I know.
2.I know.
3.I will.
4.No problem

;)

Tseric

#180 - Dec. 8, 2006, 7:59 p.m.

Ok, I've got a lot to go over here. I also have to eat.

Keep it coming.

Tseric

#301 - Dec. 8, 2006, 9:52 p.m.

raised the post cap for more replies...