unable to get a "fresh" LFR run

04/09/2013 04:04 PMPosted by Rakin

You do know that if you finish a partially finished run, the next time you queue for it you'll get a fresh one?

Yes, yes... that's all fine and dandy, but it sets up a perpetual cycle of doing the last boss or two after sitting in queue, and then having to sit in queue even longer the second time and doing the first boss or two.

I've suggested the same thing the OP mentioned several times. "Prefer full run." It would serve no other function other than letting the queue system know who are 'wildcards' that are fine with fewer than all the bosses and who are not. That way, if there are two people right there back to back in the queue where one wants all the bosses and the other simply wants to be put further into the instance (like a valor farmer)... it knows the difference.

Nothing else would be different, and there would be no guarantee that you'll get what you want if there aren't enough people to fill out the needs of the queue otherwise. It's simply to tell who is fine with what if they had a choice at the time otherwise.

One thing to keep in mind is that the matchmaking system is already quite complex. It's already checking a lot of conditions, and prioritizing those conditions to get people into dungeons as quickly as possible.

The more you start to separate people by preference in the queue, even if the system is told to ignore the preference after X amount of time has been spent without being able to adequately fill (or backfill) a group, the more you dramatically inflate queue times for everyone. I totally agree that it can be annoying to often be placed in an in-progress dungeon, but the cons of many of the changes we've seen proposed by players would almost certainly outweigh that inconvenience.

We've also put in several measures to ease the burden a bit, without having to further complicate the matchmaking system and impact queue times. One thing I can appreciate about joining a raid in-progress is that I'm more likely to get the VP reward much more quickly. In situations where I care about the points more than the loot, I benefit from getting to the last boss sooner. And, if I do want loot and need the points, I can queue again and almost definitely get a fresh instance, kill the bosses I didn't yet, use bonus rolls for extra shots at the bosses I did kill (which will be even more effective in 5.3), and finish the dungeon for an extra VP bonus. If I decide I don't want to kill the same bosses again, someone else will have to suffer this same fate. ;p

Keep in mind, too, that the need to backfill raids spikes with the release of each new Throne of Thunder wing. Success rates in the new content aren't as high (it's new!), and so you're seeing more people give up on groups, perpetuating the need to backfill raids. What we've tried to do is still make it worth the average person's time to finish the dungeon, while ensuring the matchmaking system tries much harder to give you a fresh instance if you requeue after not getting one the first time.

It's really about striking that balance between being accommodating, and being efficient. If a condition was set which allowed players to control whether they receive a fresh instance or not, wait times for everyone would be unacceptable, and potentially indefinite at odd hours of the day.

But for those of us that may be limited on time and need the loot that can drop our raid time is used for the convenience of the others in that group that needed a backfill and we have no shot at the things WE needed it for. Some of us do NOT have the time for double queues.

At least before it showed us if it was in progress and we could choose not to enter if we did not want to deal with that.

That was changed specifically because of the negative cascading effect it had. Not only was that a clunky, frustrating way of trying to force the queue to give you what you wanted (a fresh instance), it caused many raids to simply fall apart. Once people started leaving, and others refused to join, those left in the dungeon were out of luck. And you could say "sucks for them," but the ripple effect will just come back around to you. We saw it in action prior to patch 5.1, and it had a debilitating effect on the entire matchmaking system.

See... just like in the last thread I posted in where this came up... people don't read.

No where did I say 'full run only.' I said 'prefer full run.' There wouldn't be any 'only' about it. You don't get to make the choice. You simply let the system know what you would prefer. Nothing else would change. It would affect nothing other than letting the queue system know the difference between 'only wanting valor' and 'trying to do them all the first time.'

The point I was making in my first post was that this isn't going to yield the results you want. If you're simply asking for the queue to acknowledge your preference, it's probably not going to cater to it (if it doesn't now, why would it just because you checked a box?). But if you want the queue to separate players into pools based on a selected preference, every bit of calculation it makes before deciding when each individual has waited too long for their preference is going to inflate wait times exponentially for everyone.

Going to be simple with you Zarhym, The LFR finder system blows. The loot system is awful. My brother COMPLETED 5, that's right FIVE, unfinished LFRs for the SAME ONE. Only on his 6th try did he finally get a fresh run.

Waiting 30 mins AT BEST to an average of 60 mins a few times a week just to be able to down 1 boss is a joke and many people don't have time for sitting around. You said that people had priority for a "fresh run" after completing an unfinished one. So? where is that?

Like I said, the system tries to strike a balance between being accommodating, and being efficient. If you've completed an in-progress dungeon and requeue, the matchmaking system will prioritize you for a fresh run. This was happening very normally in LFR after being introduced in patch 5.1. That said, if the rate at which people are abandoning in-progress instances hits a high enough threshold, the matchmaking system isn't going to be able to both backfill raids AND create fresh ones in a reasonable timeframe. This is what you might be seeing in the new dungeon wings as more groups struggle with less familiar content.

I want to clarify, as we seem to be drifting away from the topic I originally posted about. It was not so much about que times as it was that getting a full or fresh run does not happen anymore in LFR, causing players that want loot from the bosses to que multiple times.
It seems that no one seems to be reading past the 1st option I put on the OP, so I am reposting them here.

2) Give replacement tanks the option to get a "free roll" for each boss that was downed prior to there arrival.
-Example : Tank A leaves raid after boss 1 and 2 are down. Tank B comes in and downs the remaining 2 bosses with the raid. At the end of the raid, the tank receives the option to roll for a chance at each Boss 1s and Boss 2s LFR loot tables.
- To keep people from attempting to game the system, this "free roll" system would also take into account what bosses in LFR you have down this current week. In the example above, Tank A comes back online and reques, and starts at Boss 3. Tank A finishes the raid. Tank A will not get the "free roll" option because he has already recieved loot from Boss 1 and 2.

3) Put all the bosses LFR loot tables into one big loot table
- This would keep players from farming certain bosses
- Do not award loot until the player leaves the raid or the last boss is defeated, then that player receives a roll for each boss he/she downed.
- option 2 above could easily be added.

With this reposted here, I would like to draw more attention to them, as I believe a combination of the 2 would be the solution the issue.

One thing to keep in mind is that the matchmaking system is already quite complex. It's already checking a lot of conditions, and prioritizing those conditions to get people into dungeons as quickly as possible.

The more you start to separate people by preference in the queue, even if the system is told to ignore the preference after X amount of time has been spent without being able to adequately fill (or backfill) a group, the more you dramatically inflate queue times for everyone. I totally agree that it can be annoying to often be placed in an in-progress dungeon, but the cons of many of the changes we've seen proposed by players would almost certainly outweigh that inconvenience.

If you would elaborate on the cons of my proposed solutions, I would be much abliged.

We've also put in several measures to ease the burden a bit, without having to further complicate the matchmaking system and impact queue times. One thing I can appreciate about joining a raid in-progress is that I'm more likely to get the VP reward much more quickly. In situations where I care about the points more than the loot, I benefit from getting to the last boss sooner. And, if I do want loot and need the points, I can queue again and almost definitely get a fresh instance

Very rarely do I, or many of the players whom I play with, get a fresh instance in the above case.

Keep in mind, too, that the need to backfill raids spikes with the release of each new Throne of Thunder wing. Success rates in the new content aren't as high (it's new!), and so you're seeing more people give up on groups, perpetuating the need to backfill raids. What we've tried to do is still make it worth the average person's time to finish the dungeon, while ensuring the matchmaking system tries much harder to give you a fresh instance if you requeue after not getting one the first time.

My recommendation of a combination of the 2 above methods would deffinately solve this problem

It's really about striking that balance between being accommodating, and being efficient. If a condition was set which allowed players to control whether they receive a fresh instance or not, wait times for everyone would be unacceptable, and potentially indefinite at odd hours of the day.

Again, I believe my solutions above would achieve this. If I am wrong, please correct me. My intent is not to rip what you said apart, but to respond piece by piece as your response was pretty long and covered a lot of different parts.

I did read your other proposed solutions and was hoping to see some debate within the community on their merits. In my non-designer opinion, option 2 is too rewarding. If I understand correctly, your solution is to let tanks who get put into in-progress dungeons get virtually all the benefits of a full clear, just so they don't queue up again and leave the next dungeon early. I'm not convinced that would even make fresh instances more common for non-tanks.

Option 3 is something that could certainly be debated, but do keep in mind that you're talking about a fairly dramatic overhaul of the LFR loot system. There are countless implications to consider, including the fact that this would push the LFR loot model further away from normal/Heroic raids. All of this is well and good by the way. Don't get me wrong. We like when people are happy to discuss new ideas for improving the game. :) I just can't imagine how such a dramatic change could reasonably be achieved this expansion.

In all, given the fact that the issue of getting into fresh instances is much more applicable to the 5.2 raids, it seems that the discussion is better centered around why so many people are leaving these raids early. Are the instances too difficult? Or, will this quickly stabilize as strategies become more common knowledge and gear improves?

You should get faster queues AND a fresh queue also if you finish a partial run. People keep saying you do get a fresh run. That is not always the case. Blues keep posting that you are suppose too. But many threads keep popping "Why don't I ever get fresh runs"? People run LFR because you can do it at any time. Currently its not like that. spending 80 minutes worth of being in a queue just to clear ONE wing should not be happening. If I spend that much time PLUS the extra 40 minutes just to do the raid itself you might as well do normals sometimes.

If you might as well, go for it! But I do question the argument that the time investment becomes too similar to normal modes, not to mention the coordination/gear/strats needed to actually kill the bosses on a higher difficulty.

04/09/2013 06:44 PMPosted by Mate

Should still give people a choice on whether they want to be cannon fodder in a failed raid or not. If the raid is midway through and looking for more people, then something happened to cause that.

Yep people left for whatever reason. Queue up for a fresh run 1 minute after reset. 1 shot first boss, lose 2 people, 1 shot 2nd boss lose 3 people.

They are not leaving because they are already saved, they are not leaving because the group is fail, but regardless that run needs 5 replacements.

Correct. I never make assumptions about the in-progress group I've been put in, as people come and go all the time for countless reasons. Usually reading raid chat once you enter is a good indicator of how things are going (or not) anyway. :p

04/09/2013 07:09 PMPosted by Bomdanil

If you might as well, go for it! But I do question the argument that the time investment becomes too similar to normal modes, not to mention the coordination/gear/strats needed to actually kill the bosses on a higher difficulty.

LFR is supposed to be the "more time flexible" version of raiding for people, but due to the inability to finish a wing or get the bosses that are relevant to you it's actually a much larger time investment compared to heroic or normal modes.

It's rather counterintuitive since the removal of the boss indicator.

I still don't agree with that at all. I might do an in-progress LFR run at 10 pm on a Wed, decide that's enough for the night, and then come back at 1 am Friday morning when I'm ready to squeeze another hour or two of WoW in (I... stay up late). I can't coordinate that time with 9-24 other people.

Honestly, I think that this phenomenon will settle down once the ToT LFRs are on cakewalk mode. All the 5.0 LFRs are snooze fests now (never a wipe) even on alts with crap gear.

If the current situation (half done raids) is bothering you, I suggest waiting until each wing is 2 weeks old before doing it. Already, Part 1 of ToT is a breeze and Part 2 only really stumbles on Mr Turtle (more from tank disagreements than difficulty) from what I have seen on various alts.

To further reinforce this, our data shows that the success rates in each new Throne of Thunder LFR wing are close to par with those of Dragon Soul, Mogu'shan, Terrace and Heart of Fear LFRs when they were first released. Statistically, the success rates in a new LFR wing roughly double within 2-3 weeks of release, and we're comfortable with that. As those success rate increase, the cycle of people dropping early due to group failure decreases substantially, and that should really add stability, in terms of players being much more likely to be put into a fresh instance if they weren't the first time around.

The system was supposed to prioritize people for a new instance if they joined one already in progress. It currently doesn't. So now you're forced to do the same boss twice, and only have a chance at loot once.

This makes it a bad system. Is that hard to grasp? You make sure we can't complete normals/heroics more than once per week.

It's an absolute fact that the system HIGHLY prioritizes you for a fresh instance if you're queueing solo and have already completed an in-progress version of that instance in a given week. What the system won't do, however, is lock you out of being put into an instance indefinitely because it can't match enough people together with that same priority to make a proper raid group.

And, while it is true that a boss you've already killed won't drop items for you when it dies, you can still use a bonus roll if you have one.