Regional Flag5.3 changes concerning PvP (Show MVP Posts)Source
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#1 - 2013/03/23 11:35:00 AM
In this thread I will list down all the 5.3 (PTR) notes that concern PvP. I will update it every time there is new information. I will also post my opinion on these changes.
UPDATE 17/04/13 (I thought this thread was deleted, hence the late update):

Eye of the Storm: The starting platforms have been lowered.

No longer will Paladins and Death Knights lose their health at the start because of their speed increase, awesome!

Picking up the Alliance or Horde flag while in a Rated Battleground now increases damage taken by 50% for characters in a tanking specialization, and increases damage taken by 20% for characters in a non-tanking specialization.

This will make more specs a viable FC, but current FCs might lose their role because of this. I'm not sure what to say about it, it can turn out very nice, or very, very bad.

Tyrannical Gladiator’s Tabard and Tyrannical Gladiator’s Greatcloak are available as new prestige items at 2500 rating for 1000 Conquest Points

Great to see more vanity items in PvP. I'm wondering if the rating inflation system will make a significant difference to how hard these items are to acquire. We really need some mid-rating rewards though.

- Glorious Tyranny weapon enchantment now grants 600 PvP Power instead of 400 PvP Power and 200 Resilience.
- New weapon enchantment: Bloody Dancing Steel is functionally equivalent to Dancing Steel, shares the same visual effect as Glorious Tyranny, costs a scroll of the base enchant, and requires a 2200 rating.
- New weapon enchantment: Spirit of Conquest is functionally equivalent to Jade Spirit, shares the same visual effect as Glorious Tyranny, costs a scroll of the base enchant, and requires a 2200 rating.

This should make these enchants viable for more classes, which is good. I haven't seen these in-game yet though, are they easy to spot - and therefore prestigious?

Tyrannical weapons no longer have a conquest-earned prerequisite to purchase them.

Nice! This will make it easier for alts to jump in later on in the seasaon.

- Battle Fatigue now reduces the amount of healing and absorbs by 45%, up from 30%.
- PvP Power bonus to healing is now based on class and specialization.
- Healing specializations receive a 100% bonus to healing from PvP Power.
- Damage specializations for Druids, Monks, Paladins, Priests, and Shamans receive a 70% bonus to healing from PvP Power.
- All other specializations and classes (including tanking) receive a 40% bonus to healing from PvP Power.

I like that PvP Power is now based on class and spec, because it should make adjustments a lot easier. I'm not sure what to say about the other nerfs or buffs, anyone on PTR who can give more information on how these changes are affecting PvP at the moment?

Changes to the current Blade's Edge and Dalaran arena are live on the PTR. The pillars in Blade's Edge have been exchanged for stairs and there are now stairs behind the boxes on the Dalaran map.

This looks really good! Knockback classes won't have a unfair advantage anymore over others, especially melee, which had no chance to kill certain classes if they stood on the pillar/behind the boxes.

A new arena with the Shado'pan theme called The Tiger's Peak has been added. It looks a bit like Tol'vir, except that it has two small platforms (with fences).

Looks good. Nothing really special, but that's just how an arena map should be in my opinion.

Hildegard has made a video about the two changed maps and the new one, you can check it out here:

- All characters now have a base Resilience of 65%.
- Resilience has been removed from most PvP gear.
- Season 13 Tyrannical gear had their item levels increased to ilevel 496, up from ilevel 493.
- Season 13 Tyrannical Elite gear had their item levels decreased to ilevel 496, down from ilevel 512.
- Battlegrounds, Rated Battlegrounds, and Arenas now have an ilevel cap. All gear will be scaled down to ilevel 496.

This sounds really, really good. I will break it down for you.

1) Increase of base Resilience means that we take less damage in general, which is good.
2) Season 13 Tyrannical gear was only slightly better than Season 12 Malevolent 2/2, it's good that the item level (and therefore stats) gets increased.
3) Season 13 Tyrannical Elite gear was so much better than normal Season 13 Tyrannical gear, it was basically just like the upgrade system we had in season 12. This was only making the gap we have in gear between characters even bigger.
4) Scaling down item level, also scales down the stats. In 5.3 we will have PvE gear with an item level that is A LOT higher than the current PvP gear. There was a chance that it would become better than the PvP gear. By scaling down gear to item level 496 in PvP zones, this should hardly be a problem (if it would be a problem at all).
5) Resilience has been removed from most PvP, hmmm. I can't really comment on this yet, we will need more information on which pieces this concerns, if the Resilience gets buffed on other pieces, etc.

One minor concern would be World PvP. If the item level of PvP gear is only 496, PvE gear might be very dominant here. To be fair with you though, I'm not that bothered with World PvP in the first place, so don't mind this at all.

New Battleground: Deepwind Gorge

In the new Battleground situated in the Valley of the Four Winds, the Alliance and Horde continue their war for Pandaria’s precious resources. While the two factions battle for control over mines, they must also protect their own resources from being stolen and turned against them!
Cool, a new battleground. It sounds a bit like Silvershard Mines, except for "they must also protect their own resources from being stolen and turned against them". I'm curious how this will work and if it will be added to the Rated Battlegrounds, I'm looking forward to thinking of new strategies! I really can't comment on this, as it's not yet finished on the PTR.

Blog with additional information and explanation for the reasoning behind PvP changes will be available very soon.

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#47 - 2013/03/26 08:31:00 AM
23/03/2013 11:35Posted by Thornass
One minor concern would be World PvP. If the item level of PvP gear is only 496, PvE gear might be very dominant here. To be fair with you though, I'm not that bothered with World PvP in the first place, so don't mind this at all.
We are well aware that this is a concern that has arisen from players regarding the recently announced changes. While we understand that this is an unfortunate sacrifice for the overall betterment of PvP, we feel that this change will improve the state of both competitive and entry level PvP. This means that more players will be able to enter into PvP and as such increase to competition and the attractiveness of this fun and exciting area of the game.

This doesn't mean that world PvP and duels will be ignored. We definitely understand that players are wanting more huge, epic and glorious PvP such as those that come from world PvP, we just don't feel that it's the right place with the faction imbalance that is present in such battles. We are also looking into trying to find some solutions that will help with PvE gear in duels as we have seen this is a concern as well.

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#62 - 2013/03/26 09:38:00 AM
Let me elaborate: A tank has no use at all what so ever of PvP power, nada zip null. So he gets his shiny PvE gear with superduper tank stats on it, an insane amount of sockets. He then sockets and enchants all out resilience on everything becoming virtually immune to melee damage (hi dodge, parry and block!) and still extremely viable against casters.

Basically no high rated RBG team will take a PvP geared tank, because they will benefit so much more from PvE geared tanks with the appropriate gems and enchants.
That is something that we are also aware of, we don't want fully PvE geared tanks being the best choice for flag carriers either. Solutions to this are already being looked into and Brian Holinka is actually discussing that particular topic with the community already on Twitter:

26/03/2013 08:53Posted by Zumráx
) Balance classes (huge issue)
This is something we are constantly working to address, don't think that because we're making these changes that class balance has taken a backseat.

26/03/2013 08:53Posted by Zumráx
2) Delete the 70 zillion CC possibilities on all characters
We know that the current number of CC present in the game right now is a concern of players. We’re looking at ways to help with the number of CC in PvP combat right now, but it would be a large type of gameplay overhaul and can be risky to implement in the middle of an expansion cycle if the change is too drastic.

26/03/2013 08:53Posted by Zumráx
3) Fix the amount of "I can global you on 1 macro" playstyle
We are monitoring damage constantly and when we see a need to, we make tweaks and adjustments as they are needed. You can see this from the fact that several of these bursting macros are not as effective as they were previously.

26/03/2013 09:21Posted by Jeniwyn
Since this has been designated the "single feedback thread" by Nakatoir, I'll post my input regarding tanks here, rather than finding a more specific thread or making my own.
Not really the designated topic to discuss everything related to the patch 5.3 changes, but this particular thread is discussing the changes coming to PvP gear and it is always best to keep discussions about the same topic in one thread. That is why the other thread was locked and redirected here, because both threads were about the same thing :)

I know GC hates the word "scaling", but I'm afraid now its extremely relevant.

HOW will the 65% damage reduction change in future patches?

65% would've been ridiculous in 5.0. Now its fine. Next patch, its too little. What to think of this?
Who says that this number cannot be tweaked depending on the patch and the numbers being seen? This change gives us another knob that we can turn in order to balance out damage, just like Battle Fatigue does for healing.

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#82 - 2013/03/26 10:46:00 AM
26/03/2013 09:46Posted by Jeniwyn
I thought it was obvious that what I meant was single feedback thread regarding the PvP gear changes. In the case of my post specifically regarding tanks, something that hadn't really been a focus so far in this particular thread and might have seen a bit out of context. ^^
Not at all, it is related to the topic and I addressed a similar comment in my last post. We want to make sure that PvE geared tanks are not the best option for flag carriers and are looking into ways to make sure that they will use PvP gear as their best in slot choices.

I also would like to say how important world PvP is for many people, the sole reason I do arena, RBG's and get PvP gear is to be competitive in world PvP and be able to fight back in the world while doing dailies etc.

Now the PvP'rs who focus soley or mostly on PvP are actually going to be worse off when fighting other players in the world. While players who do not PvP at all and only raid are going to have an advantage.

It's not fun when the PvP gear you've worked so hard to get is only useful when you zone in to an arena or a battleground. And is otherwise useless.

I agree people with PvE should maybe have more of a chance in PvP (though I've always thought sucks for them not getting PvP gear, they can always out dps me in a raid/dungeon instead).

In the end players who focus on PvE are going to be doing more damage/healing in raids and dungeons than me, while having and advantage over me in the world. While the only area PvP gear will be more beneficial is in arenas and battlegrounds where it isn't that much better.
We completely agree. We don't want people who have worked so hard to get their PvP gear to be left out in the cold for world PvP either, but we feel that the overall benefits that this will provide are greater than the issues it creates for World PvP.

While we do want World PvP to be an enjoyable experience for everyone, we are primarily concerned with instanced PvP. The reason for this is because world PvP generally comes down to ganking and the number of players on either side. This is not to say that we don't want World PvP and massive, out of control battles to flourish though, we are just not sure that something that suffers from major drawbacks such as faction imbalance is an optimal location for this.

26/03/2013 10:17Posted by Atherion
I do not understand why you have to remove the ilvl 512 from elite gear if it scales down anyways. If we keep the ilvl 512 we will have more of a fighting chance in world PVP whilst keeping the balance in Battlegrounds and Arenas
Because then the conversion across to Season 14 would have been even worse than the transition from S12 to S13. We are aware that the armor not being an upgrade any more is not something many players are happy with, but it is becoming a prestige upgrade with 5.3 again where it will require a certain rating to obtain.

26/03/2013 10:26Posted by Villany
So who will do more damage, a PvE player in full heroic raiding gear, or a PvP player in full honor gear?
I can answer this with a quote from the PvP Gear in Patch 5.3 blog :)
PvP Gear in Patch 5.3:
Even Honor gear, with its considerable amount of PvP Power, will provide more damage in PvP than normal and Heroic raid gear.

26/03/2013 10:10Posted by Martti
btw someone cc the blue. dont see blue on pvp forums so often that i wanna keep him here O:
Wait, what do you mean? :O I am here all the time :'(

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#84 - 2013/03/26 10:59:00 AM
26/03/2013 10:47Posted by Бичсудьбы
1. what about pve set bonuses? how will you balance them?
Which set bonuses are you most concerned about? We do not want the set bonuses to trump the other big benefits that are given by PvP gear, so tell us which ones you are most worried about, and why.

26/03/2013 10:47Posted by Бичсудьбы
2. also tanks and healers in full pve gear seems OP.
Already commented on that one :) PvP power will be better for healers than PvE gear.

26/03/2013 10:47Posted by Бичсудьбы
3. what about legendary items? sha sockets and so on, are you sure it will be balanced enough?
I assume you mean the thunderforged items, they all get lowered down to Ilvl 496 as well. The Sha sockets shouldn't be able to trump the value of PvP power, however we will keep an eye on this and make changes if we feel they are needed.

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#141 - 2013/03/26 03:02:00 PM
Shado pan:
That arena looks pretty damned sweet in my opinion, can see some interesting tactics being used around those platforms :O

you really believe that a label : "elite" is something that make you feeling cool? :(
The difference is not only a "label", they are cosmetically different. They will also have a rating requirement in 5.3 which gives them a bit more prestige and they will be something that you will need to aim for a certain rating to achieve.

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#200 - 2013/03/27 01:32:00 PM
27/03/2013 12:51Posted by Kúba
They are pretty much forcing us in to pve it seems, time to get that hard core raid on the go
Can you explain why you feel this way? In Battlegrounds and Arena, PvP items will trump PvE gear.
26/03/2013 15:44Posted by Hjelpen
PvP gear offers the same stats as a PvE gear in the same item level, the things you will lose out on is set bonuses, some sockets, and maybe some socket bonuses.
Actually, the sockets come at the price of some of the iLvl budget. So even if you miss out on a socket or two, PvP gear gets some more stats as well as PvP power not being a part of the iLvl budget. :)

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#214 - 2013/03/27 03:49:00 PM
Because PvE gear will be BiS if you don't change something. Which means that PvPers will be forced to PvE to get the best gear.
Only in world PvP, but our developers are already looking into solutions for this.

Also, this is the Arena and Rated Battleground forum, if you wish to discuss the World PvP aspects of this change, please do so in this thread:

27/03/2013 14:48Posted by Mírion
To be fair, you did say that that honor gear would be somewhat worse then last seasons conquest gear too. I understand if people don't believe you.
Well, if you won't believe me there is a blog that states quite clearly that in instanced PvP such as Battlegrounds and Arena, PvP gear will be BiS. I quoted this previously in the thread from the PvP Gear in Patch 5.3 blog — "Even Honor gear, with its considerable amount of PvP Power, will provide more damage in PvP than normal and Heroic raid gear."

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#219 - 2013/03/27 04:08:00 PM
27/03/2013 15:54Posted by Mírion
It was just posting a thought on why people are against this to start with. Myself I know that PvP gear will be the best but I'm a bit worried about all the gems slots in the PvE gear and the fact that reslience gems are still in the game.
Actually, this is something I addressed in an earlier post. The sockets of PvE items are a part of the iLvl budget, so if an item has more sockets it generally has less stats when unsocketed. The PvP power on the PvP gear is not a part of the iLvl budget. You can also use your sockets to gear for PvP power and resilience, those gems are not restricted to PvE gear only. :p

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#238 - 2013/03/28 09:13:00 AM
27/03/2013 16:22Posted by Kaelthasnite
So whats the deal you making us pvp'ers slay dragons to get good ratings in arena? SEEMS LEGIT
I don't think I ever implied that, in fact I have said the opposite on multiple occasions. I stated several times that PvP gear will be superior in Battlegrounds and Arena so please be sure to read the thread and posts fully, not doing so can lead to misinterpretation and knee-jerk reactions like what occurred here.

27/03/2013 17:32Posted by Mírion
so if an item has more sockets it generally has less stats when unsocketed. The PvP power on the PvP gear is not a part of the iLvl budget. You can also use your sockets to gear for PvP power and resilience

When I check the PVE gear right now it has far more intellect, stamina & haste / crit with triple gems. Just to clarify, the intellect / stamina / haste / crit will be less then on PvP gear because of the 3 gems slots?
While this example shows the PvP item with the gem slot and the PvE not, it still displays the point.;86703

These are two items with the same iLvl, the one with the socket has slightly reduced stats on it at the expense of gaining that socket. The same will happen when heroic gear gets lowered down to 496 iLvl, it will lose out on stats at the expense of gaining those sockets.