Why we need to see LFR boss status

#1 - Nov. 28, 2012, 11:28 p.m.

Very rarely does an issue come up for me that I feel strongly enough about to make a post. That being said, I completely disagree with removing the line that shows the raid completion (number of bosses down) when your LFR instance pops. I'm not here to make threats of cancelling my sub, or throw a tantrum or anything, but I'd like to bring about some rational points concerning this change.

First off, why was this change implemented? If it was to stop people from "shopping around for a fresh raid", then you've done that, but you've ALSO caused a real disservice to the people who were already forced to join a previous raid in progress and are now needing the first and/or second boss of the instance to complete their loot rolls for the week.

As it stands now after the patch, we aren't shown the completion status of a raid until we're ported inside and have to figure it out on our own. If we find that we've already downed all the remaining bosses in our previous raid, we're forced to either port out and get a 30 minute deserter debuff, or else kill the bosses again without having ANY benefit for doing so (no loot, no experience).

On my server, when I join a LFR as DPS, the queue ranges between 15-30 minutes, with the average being around 20 minutes, and I'm fine with that. Let's say I queue for the first time and get into a raid after a 20 minute wait, only to find out it's a 1/3 completion, meaning the first boss has been killed. I need to kill all the bosses for possible drops I need anyway, so I don't mind starting with boss #2. I accept the port.

I get through the raid, kill those two bosses, and then requeue again so I can (hopefully) get a raid that's 0/3 and I can complete the first boss. My second raid pops and I port in, only to find it's also a 1/3. Since there's absolutely no benefit to me staying in that raid and spending the next 30-60 minutes killing two bosses I already killed, I would logically port out and requeue. But wait! I can't because I have 30 minute deserter debuff! So now I have to wait 30 minutes before even having the OPPORTUNITY to requeue, then wait another 20 minutes for the instance to pop.

By removing this feature that shows us the completion, you are basically forcing people into a time sink in that they either stick around to kill bosses they've already done (which is pointless) or else punish them with a 30 minute debuff. Either way, you're wasting people's playtime, when many of us have limited time to play as it is. Being an "OMGCASUAL" I have a couple hours in the evening to play, so naturally I'd like to make the best of that time and not spend it being "punished" with debuffs and unnecessary waiting around. I don't expect to get into a raid after 5 minutes, nor do I expect it to always be a 0/3 raid, but neither do I deserve to spend roughly an hour each attempt "gambling" that an appropriate instance pops for me. This can easily result in 2-3 hours to complete an instance that shouldn't take more than an hour.

Had I seen the second raid pop as 1/3, I simply would not have joined it. Not only would this have saved me time by allowing me to requeue, it also would have freed up the spot for someone who maybe hadn't killed ANY bosses yet, or didn't need whatever #1 dropped, and didn't mind joining a raid in progress (like I did the first time).

There are a few options that would make the entire LFR experience fair for everyone:

1) Go back to showing us the completion status so we can decide for ourselves whether or not to join. If we decline, that just opens a spot for another player who may not mind an in-progress raid, and we can requeue without wasting the raid's (and our own) time.

2) Don't show us the completion status, but don't give us the deserter debuff if we leave after seeing that we've already completed the remaining bosses. Let us leave and requeue, then give the spot to the next person in the queue.

3) Give people a checkbox that allows them to queue for ONLY fresh instances and/or for instances in progress. This way when an instance pops, you'll know it's one that you can actually benefit from, depending on what you've already done for the week. This does NOT mean that people will only queue for fresh instances all the time, because I think many people don't mind what ORDER they kill the bosses in, as long as they only have to kill each one once.

TL;DR version - please reconsider showing the number of bosses downed, or else eliminate the deserter debuff.

Bashiok

Community Manager

#26 - Nov. 29, 2012, 8:52 p.m.

Right, so with 5.1 the game no longer tells you how many bosses are left for the group you’re being matched with for Raid Finder (LFR).

To explain why we made the change, let’s go back to the problem everyone was experiencing before. Let’s say a fresh LFR group is put together, they get two bosses down, and then wipe a few times on the third and lose 10 people who think they’re too cool for wiping. Now the group is down to 15, waiting for 10 new people, the queue eventually pops for those 10, and most of them see 2/6 and hit cancel. The raid still isn't full, the matchmaker has to go looking again for more people, and meanwhile as time ticks on people from the original run are getting more frustrated. Maybe a few of them leave, and then there’s even more spots to fill. Plenty of times everyone just gives up and the entire run falls apart, all those people are back in the queue, and they’ll be-damned if they join an in-progress run to fall apart again!

These kinds of things happen all of the time, and in the vast majority of situations it’s simply because people don’t like the idea of joining an in-progress run, even if it would have succeeded.

You may think we’re trying to be underhanded, but the reality is we’re trying to help people be more efficient with their play time. What most people don’t realize is that if they get and complete an in-progress run, the next time they queue they will preferentially be placed into a fresh instance. What everyone should be doing, to be the most efficient, is joining and sticking with their runs to completion. If they join an in-progress group they can catch up on those other couple bosses they missed immediately after, and if they have the time, they’d be wise to down the ones they've already killed again for extra Valor.

The patch has only been out a couple days of course, but personally I think there are some people who don’t realize yet how an in-progress run, and that extra Valor, can directly translate to improved items through the new upgrade system. An in-progress run is very likely better bang for the buck to your character power due to item level upgrades than hitting cancel over and over to get a fresh run and then hoping for a boss drop.

There are of course other issues that cause LFR groups to fall apart, like boss difficulty, and those are the kinds of things we’re looking at bigger solutions for. Losing a couple people doesn’t need to mean the whole run is doomed.

Bashiok

Community Manager

#32 - Nov. 29, 2012, 9:03 p.m.

Can't people who just joined leave immediately upon seeing that it's not a fresh run and just queue again? I believe if a boss is killed you don't get deserter for leaving so this doesn't fix the issue you're trying to fix really.

=/

There's a deserter debuff given if you don't stay and participate in the raid.

Bashiok

Community Manager

#37 - Nov. 29, 2012, 9:06 p.m.

11/29/2012 01:02 PMPosted by Elepheagle
What about the addon(s) that were written post-5.1 in response to this that tell you how many bosses, if any, have been killed?

You mean the one that was deleted from Curse because it didn't work? :) As far as I'm aware none of them work.

Bashiok

Community Manager

#43 - Nov. 29, 2012, 9:09 p.m.

Ok Blizzard,

Let's expand your Scenario. I queue as a Healer, I get a group that is on last boss.

We kill the boss.

However, now I still need the first two bosses. So I queue and zone in, guess what? The groups is on last boss, the one I have already killed. So I drop group as soon as I zone in.

Exactly what has this fixed?

Is this a hypothetical situation? If you're solo-queuing you should be getting a fresh instance when queuing again after completing the previous in-progress run. It's not an absolute guarantee, but pretty close to one.

Bashiok

Community Manager

#69 - Nov. 29, 2012, 9:21 p.m.

11/29/2012 01:11 PMPosted by Pandemagium
What if you are valor capped for the week? What good does killing bosses again do? Or what if you have limited play time, and would rather queue once and get your LFR done in one go? This change doesn't stop 2/6 queues from showing up. It isn't going to speed up anything. Everyone who would have gotten a 2/6 and skipped it, is now forced to do that 2/6 and then hope the next queue works as intended putting you in for the first boss, and then dropping, creating another 2/6 for someone else. I don't see how that helps at all.

Matching random people together with differing interests, preferences, and goals is always going to mean people will be leaving when they feel they want to for... whatever reasons they deem necessary. If you want to have a group that's organized and sticks together, queuing to be matched with strangers has a higher chance of not offering that experience. What we can do, and will continue to strive for, is lessening the social burdens of being matched with strangers in an unknown situation and reducing some of the behaviors that may cause more degenerative uses of the tool - ideally through positive reinforcement, but that's not always possible.

In any case, I don't think anyone thinks any part of the game is perfect, and so much like everything we do it's going to be an ongoing iterative process. Feedback on what you think we can do to make things smoother for you is always helpful.

Bashiok

Community Manager

#84 - Nov. 29, 2012, 9:26 p.m.

As a healer, I NEVER will do a 1/6 or 2/6 already defeated LFR. EVER.

I will simply place myself on auto-follow, and either afk or simply stand there and heal only myself, in the hopes of either getting kicked and avoiding said debuff, they'll wipe - in which I can leave without said debuff or they'll complete the run without me and I'll get gold or gear. Either way, I get what I want out of the deal.

That's a rather poor attitude to take, especially considering meaningful rewards are still available. Maybe an MMO isn't the right kind of game for you? :)

Bashiok

Community Manager

#89 - Nov. 29, 2012, 9:28 p.m.

Maybe an MMO isn't the right kind of game for you? :)

wowCMFeedback@Blizzard.com, correct?

Absolutely.

Bashiok

Community Manager

#186 - Nov. 29, 2012, 9:52 p.m.

As one of the people who requested this change a month ago and is quite pleased with it, I'd like to point out that it's been working in Dungeon Finder for a long time now. Initially I thought nerfing end bosses in LFR was the only solution, to reduce the number of people who leave towards the end. But then it was pointed out to me that Dungeon Finder enjoyed great success simply by hiding the number of dead bosses on the confirmation screen. It's not some radical new change; it's just taking a successful improvement to Dungeon Finder, and extending it to LFR.

I'll add that it'simply selfish to want the freedom to leave raids early, but not also accept the responsibility to sometimes be called upon to finish a half-completed raid. Trying to only benefit and never contribute is cheating the system. It's standard game design not to reward people who try to cheat. Nothing surprising here.

You're awesome.

And you're exactly right, you can't have it both ways. Leave whenever it suits you AND expect there to be fresh raids waiting for you each time. It'd be great if that was possible, but it is an MMO with lots of other real live people playing. Ideally though cooperating to complete a raid is rewarding enough for everyone that it's generally functioning in a way that makes everyone want to cooperate.

Bashiok

Community Manager

#218 - Nov. 29, 2012, 10:01 p.m.

11/29/2012 01:56 PMPosted by Hazzard
I think the domino effect that this will cause will force most everyone to queue 2 times for every raid.

How are you not queuing twice, or more, waiting for a 0/6 run?

Anyway, there are still plenty of runs making it to completion, which means less people joining in-progress runs, and that only increases as people learn the fights and their gear improves.