Are challenge modes going to be nerfed at all

09/12/2012 11:04 AMPosted by Doromil

Seriously blizzard, if CHALLENGE modes are ever nerfed to the point say like the cataclysm heroic dungeons were, what would be the point in calling them CHALLENGE mode runs?

That isn't the intention. Now, there could be times were a particular dungeon has a specific mechanic, pull, or encounter that is more difficult than we intended in all difficulties. In cases like that you may see us make adjustments to the dungeon across the board.

But, to be clear, our intent isn't to make Challenge Mode dungeons more accessible or easier over time. In part this is also why, as you acquire more powerful gear over the course of the expansion, it will be scaled down in this setting so that the challenge remains roughly equivalent from the start of the expansion to the end. We also don't allow matchmaking for them, as they're intended to be difficult for organized groups.

I can totally see you guys nerfing a previous set when a new set comes out however.

Seems to be par the course. Nerf it when it's not current content.

The Challenge Mode dungeon structure is really closely bound up with the leaderboards we’re going to have. It isn’t really possible to “nerf” the content meaningfully without invalidating those leaderboards. It may be helpful to think of the Gold medal armor sets as analogous to Gladiator mounts. We may have a new “season” of Challenges, with new dungeons to race through, but that doesn’t mean that past seasons’ rewards will suddenly become more attainable.

09/12/2012 02:14 PMPosted by Cbaoth

Hey if challenge modes are cool and go well, will we get challenge raids like AQ40 and MC??? If so you guys should have challenge mode raid achievements for each raid and dungeon just basically saying you did em cause I think that would be cool and well worth my time to play.

If players really like Challenges and we see a lot of interest in the leaderboards, there's definitely the potential there for extending the system to raid content in some form. We've already seen a lot of interest in raid speed runs -- from our very own BlizzCon Live Raid to other events that fansites have hosted with streamed races between top guilds -- and it’s compelling to us. We'd love to explore formalizing that system!

09/12/2012 03:24 PMPosted by Zakigga

Wouldn't it defeat the point of them? Normals for leveling, heroics for that initial gearing for T14 (and they are much easier than Cata's were on launch, I've tested them), and Challenge modes for those who want a challenge. I get it, some people can spend more time on and in WoW than others, but isn't it ok to have something like this for those who want to be challenged?

Not only that, a good, organized Challenge Mode group will likely find farming Valor in Challenge dungeons to be more efficient. They're not set on a lockout like Heroic dungeons are, and the bosses reward more Valor than on Heroic, plus there's a daily quest to complete a specific Challenge Mode dungeon each day for a Valor bonus.

Conversely, a player who doesn't readily have four friends online at regular intervals will probably find running Heroic Dungeon Finder to be more efficient for obtaining Valor. Challenge dungeons are at least on par with the most difficult Burning Crusade Heroics, and death will still cost ya.

Now, in this thread I've been sharing a lot of information I've learned from Ion Hazzikostas, an awesome man, so I just want to throw in my own copper (psst, I have more than two!).

I've never been more impressed with a World of Warcraft endgame design model than I am with Mists. I think the way various prestige, vanity, fun, diverse, and power-increasing progression systems are designed shows such a commitment to the creation of gameplay with broad appeal, while preserving the philosophy that prestige can be earned through a combination of effort and exceptional performance.

Did I just go full fanboy on our devs? I'm sorry.

You never go full fanboy. ;)

09/12/2012 10:25 PMPosted by Positron

Wait so I cannot Que up Looking For a Challenge (LFC)?

Guess I won't be doing challenge modes.

Thanks for more content I won't be doing!

If you're looking for endgame content for which you can queue up to find a group, there's more of that for you in Mists than there ever has been in the history of this game.

Yes in a way it will get "easier" in time.
Blizz will not have to "nerf" the content because you will simply out gear it

You will never outgear challenge modes. One of the neat things they do is normalize your gear to a certain item level. Basically how it works is they take all of your gear and set it at a certain item level say 450 and then all of your gear becomes 450 item level (at least if it works same way as normalization in beta).

The format is actually even a little more complicated than that. Just as an example: hit cap. As you surpass the 5-player Heroic dungeon item level you'll eventually cap out hit. If we equally averaged all your stats back down to 90 Heroic dungeon levels, it'd feel crappy. In that scenario you'd be running upcoming Heroic raid content at hit cap without missing, then enter a Challenge dungeon and be missing too much. You'd then have to keep a separate set that stacks a ton of hit to make up for the loss in averages. So your hit won't scale down as much. If you're not missing raid bosses in your epic gear, you probably shouldn't be missing bosses in Challenges either.

But trinkets effects and procs will be scaled down as well and set bonuses will be deactivated.

Edit: Removed incorrect reference to block. I'm still trying to get more caffeine in my skull.

If you just wanted points you just pick up any one.

There shouldn't have to be an addon.

It doesn't risk anything. If you deemed it not worthwhile then don't use it.

You skipped my basic reason why queuing for rated content is a bad thing.

The automatic queuing systems in WoW come with the built in assumption that those involved will have a reasonable chance of succeeding at the content they've queued for.

This is not the case in rated arenas, nor is it likely to be the case in rated challenges.

All the option would do is raise false hopes & risk player frustration when they discover the pug option is guaranteed not to succeed.

OK, we get that you'd personally like to use it regardless, fair enough. But it is not the thoughtless restriction you're trying to make it out to be.

Lakhesís, your statements are very in-line with some of our development philosophies regarding matchmaking systems, player expectations in random versus pre-made groups, etc. :)

My biggest concern about Challenge modes is the opposite. Not that they will be nerfed, but they will be ´hotfixed´ to remove semi-exploits.

Let me give an example. In a certain dungeon, it is determined that a druid, shaman and mage can use certain abilities to bust through a dungeon and crush the gold medal time. The symbiosis between those 3 classes causes them to clear the dungeon 5 mins before any other comp can.

The devs know that in no time, Youtube will be filled with vids of how to do this and that soon everyone will know that you must bring a certain comp to even get close to the record time, so they hotfix it the first month of MOP.

The original druid,shaman,mage did not cheat.. so probably their record time will stand forever.

If you think I am exaggerating.. look at 75% of world first raid kills. They mostly all involve some ´tactic´ that is ruled not an exploit, but is still hotfixed very quickly to not work any longer. Of course there are other true exploits that are hotfixed as well.

My guess is that there will be a lot of challenge mode top times that come from the first 2 weeks of the expansion and last a long long time.

You bring up some legitimate concerns, Adrena. All I can say is we share those concerns and will be watching things very carefully. There will definitely be some class synergy that will work well for specific dungeons or encounters. That's okay. But we do want to make sure there's integrity in the leaderboards regardless.

The format is actually even a little more complicated than that. Just as an example: hit and block caps. As you surpass the 5-player Heroic dungeon item level you'll eventually cap out hit and block. If we equally averaged all your stats back down to 90 Heroic dungeon levels, it'd feel crappy. In that scenario you'd be running upcoming Heroic raid content at hit cap without missing, then enter a Challenge dungeon and be missing too much. You'd then have to keep a separate set that has a ton of hit and/or block to make up for the loss in averages. So your hit and block won't scale down as much. If you're not missing raid bosses in your epic gear, you probably shouldn't be missing bosses in Challenges either.

If you're raid hit capped, will you be massively over the hit cap in challenge modes (and thus wasting offensive stats) or when it scales you down will it ensure you are right at the hit cap, but not (significantly) over it, and reallocate those points to some generally useful stat.

Or to ask it another way, will players want to be aiming for a cap below raid hit cap when doing challenge modes so as not to waste stats (or are challenge mode bosses +3 bosses instead of +2 as is typical in heroic dungeons)?

If you're just at hit cap in a raid, you'll be just at hit cap in Challenges. So if you swap out any hit to stack other stats you'll be dropping below cap.