Paladin vs. Warrior - Why even use a Warrior?

#0 - Nov. 3, 2009, 10:08 p.m.

Oh cool, my thread was deleted while I was gone despite the fact that it didn't break any rules. Are we not allowed to discuss tanking imbalances anymore?

I really can't understand how paladins can one-up another tanking class completely in every respect and not get, well... balanced.

Everyone likes list, so I made one illustrating my point.

*Cooldowns*
- Shield Wall (40%/2min for major glyph + 2 TP) vs. Divine Protection (50%/2min for 2 TP)

- Last Stand (+30% HP for 20 seconds, HP lost after/2min w/ major glyph) vs. AD(Passive 20% DR below 35% PLUS passive LS upon death)

- (Enraged Regen?) vs. LoH (pending fix)

- Pally only - Divine Sac - Flavor?

*Abilities*
- Heroic Throw (Hits one target/1min CD) vs. Avenger's Shield (Hits THREE targets/30s CD)
- Taunt (Taunts target/8s CD) vs. RD (Taunts 3 targets/15sec CD)
- Thunderclap (Damage/6sec CD) vs. Consecrate (DOT (does more sustained TPS/DPS)/8sec CD)
- Shield Block (100% BR/BV for 10sec/40sec CD) vs. HS (Constant 30% BR +/- 10% from Redoubt/10sec CD)
- Def Stance (10% DR + -5% DMG) vs. Righteous Fury + Shield of the Templar (9% DR + no DMG handicap)
- Imp Def Stance (Additional 6% SP DR) vs. Guarded by the Light (Additional 6% SP DR) - WHERE'S THE FLAVOR, BLIZZ?
- Warrior 1-H Wep Spec (10% for 5 TP) vs. Paladin 1-H Wep Spec (10% for 3 TP)
- Conc Blow (Stuns for 4sec/45sec CD) vs. HoJ (Stunfs for 6sec/50sec CD)

*Debuffs*
- Demo Shout (Reduces AP/30sec dur/Uses a GCD) vs. Vindication (Reduces AP/Passive)
- Thunderclap (Reduces spd 10%/Uses GCD/30sec dur) vs. JotJ (Reduces spd 10%/Passive)

*Stats*
+6% Stam vs. +14% Stam

And, last but not least.... *DRUM ROLL*

*FLAVOR*
(Paladin Only)
- SA - Guarantees 100% mana vs. Fluctuating rage
- Divinity - All healing done to player increased by 5%
- Blessings + BoS (+3% DR for raid + 10% stam for raid + mana regen for raid)
- Divine Intervention - Free repair bills
- Hand of Freedom
- 30/50sec interrupt
- Resist Auras
- Bubble Hearth (30min CD)

(Warrior Only)
- Charge/Intercept/Intervene
- Sunders
- Shield Bash
- Challenging Shout - AoE Taunt/3min CD
- Comm Shout
- BS (overwritten by BoM)
- Spell Reflect
- Berserker Rage
- Intimidating Shout - AOE fear/3min CD
- Disarm (LOL IMMUNE)
- Vigilance - 10% TPS directed from 1 target to tank + 3% DR on target
- Shockwave - Can both help and hurt on rage.
- Random animals on your armor

*Commentary*

*Cooldowns*
- SW vs DP - DP gains an additional 10% DR on the same CD. Why?

- AD vs. LS - This is where things go haywire. First of all CDs shouldn't be passive. Nobody likes it, not even pallies. It turns everything into EZ mode and plays the game for the player. Second, for the sake of balance, either the proc effect or the DR effect needs to go. This just @##@s all over LS otherwise because it's essentially two LS's for one. In fact, the 20% DR is infinitely more useful than LS since it's always up and guaranteed EH. How did this even get past the development stage?

Essentially, Paladins get 3 CDs (4 if LoH is counted) while warriors only get 2 CDs, which are both inferior to the paladin CDs. That's not flavor, that's just imbalanced.

*Abilities*
- Avenger's Shield is Heroic Throw on half the CD and hits three times as many targets. IMBALANCED
- Taunts - Paladin taunt does dmg, warrior's does not.
- Consecrate @##@s all over TC unless you're tanking the adds on Sarth. TC needs it DPS/TPS upped and the cd reduced. IMBALANCED
- From an EH POV, Holy Shield is better. The difference between HS and SB is why warriors tanks are generally regarded as spikier and why healers prefer a paladin. SB acts as a mini-CD, but most sensible warriors would prefer EH instead.
- Warriors have a 1% DR advantage at the cost of 5% DPS/TPS. I would say pallies win here.
- Imp Def Stance vs GbtL is actually... balanced. There's a surprise.
- 1-H Spec - 10% vs. 10%. TP difference is negligible.

*Stats*
6% vs. 14%. Paladins have a clear stam advantage over warriors after T8. Definitely imbalanced, and needs a buff on the warrior side.

*Flavor*
- Mana is EZ mode compared to constantly monitoring rage. I would die to have 100% rage when I ran into a boss, and not have to worry about getting rage starved randomly during fights.
- Blessings are a blessing in disguise for pallies. Infinitely superior to shouts. They don't even need to be reapplied during combat.
- Sunders. I would chalk it up to a quality of life thing for the DPS warriors and/or rogues.
- Challenging Shout - Nice for trash/Freya/a chain of missed taunts.
- Vigilance - Hate it with a passion. WTB new talent ASAP.
- Bubble Hearth. Touchy subject. I think we all know this is the biggest imbalance, but I'll let it slide because I'm running out of space.

Of course, if I made any mistakes feel free to post them.

Ghostcrawler

#12 - Nov. 3, 2009, 10:35 p.m.

We don't delete threads in which players disagree or want to point out problems with the design. If we did, the forums would have about three threads in them.

We sometimes lock threads that are generally not contributing, but we leave them there so players can see that they were locked. We generally only delete a thread if it is overly offensive, an advertisement or similar spam.

If other players disagree with the point or the logic used in a thread they will either let it die the death of neglect or they'll argue things out, generally depending on the quality of the thread. We don't police bad information, though on occasion we'll drop in and let you know if we agree or disagree that something is a problem.

Ghostcrawler

#209 - Nov. 10, 2009, 4:28 a.m.

Q u o t e:
Yeah I remember something about that but I was under the impression that it was to talk about how our DPS was getting a bit of a boost to feel like we were doing something, but not that it would be so significant as to attribute to overall DPS numbers when balancing boss enrages and health.

Yeah, that is pretty close. We wanted to boost tank dps even when tanking and wanted tanks to care a little more about dps stats. That was more important in earlier tiers than now -- as the dps keep stacking damage and the tanks keep stacking stamina it's understandable if the gap grows wider.

We still want tanks to care more about dps stats as secondary stats, but we're not sure making threat difficult to manage is a good way to do it and we're not sure making the tank dps critical for beating enrage timers is a good way to do it either.