#0 - July 22, 2007, 12:32 p.m.
> Report this for sticky and lets hope it reaches the devs.
Reason rogues fail in 5v5 for devs from US forums written by Gilde:
"I'm getting really sick of logging on and seeing all these Rogue vs. Warrior threads and seeing the debate completely skewed and not having any relevence to the real issue. Rogue vs. Warrior does NOT mean Rogue fighting Warrior. Good Rogues are not pissed that Warriors are their counter class, they are not complaining that this is a losing matchup. They are complaining that Warriors have made rogues obsoloete in Group PvP (5v5 Arena) by fulfilling all of group roles better than rogues can, while still maintainging higher survivability, nearly double the damage output, and in addition providing the best debuff in the game as well as an uncleanseable fear bomb.
This post is PvP, not PvE. I also hate listening to people say "but rouge is outdmg ms war in grull lair!"
Damage Output:
Warrior's damage output makes a rogue's into a joke. You Rogues can brag to me about your crits all you want, and Warriors can claim that their damage output does not exceed a Rogue's by much, but if you do, you're so full of it your eyes are brown. In order to maintain 10k+ health and decent Resilience to stay alive in the first place in Arena, Rogues sacrifice a huge chunk of their damage output. If you think your damage output can match a Warrior's, I'd suggest becoming familiar with Armory.Your typical Warrior, in his 4/5 Season 1 Gladiator with that cool looking Season 2 helm and his free Stage 2 Blacksmithing Axe, or even better Stage 3 because his guild can kill trash mobs in SSC, can maintain 30-40% unbuffed crit, 2k+ attack power with Battle Shout. I'm not even going to mention people like George from Kargath, I'm talking your typical, average Joe Warrior. I encourage anyone who doubts raw damage output to find a Rogue with anywhere near those stats in PvP gear. Yes, a class with higher survivability, more mobility, and more utility, also has 10% more critical strike chance and nearly 800 more attack power. Oh, and I forgot to mention, rogues are a dual-wielding class that receives 0 hit rating from all 8 epic pieces of Season 2 Arena/BG gear, forcing your neck, rings, cape, and trinkets to make up for it.
Utility:
Warriors provide more utility than a Rogue, this much is obvious. Mortal Strike is far superior to Wound Poison as it does not require stacking time, and is not cleansable besides a Paladin's cooldown. Warrior's Pummel is just as good as Kick, yes the lockout is a second shorter, but the Warrior can easily kill you in the 4 seconds you're locked. Uncleansable, multi-target fear makes Blind look like a joke. Intercept on a 15 second timer, because every decent PvP Warrior has 4/5 Gladiator Season 1, makes Sprint downright hilarious at twenty times, yes twenty times, no exaggeration, the cooldown. And still requiring 2 invested talent points for it to remove snares just once before they're quickly reapplied. If you think you can stunlock, think again. Aside from Resilience, talents, gems, stamina, and trinkets making the one mechanic our class was designed around near useless, Warriors maintain nearly the same, if not more, stun time between 15 second Intercept strafing and Deep Thunder + Mace Spec chance.
As an aside, why is it that stunlock is cried about so often? How was it so bad remaining stunned those seconds, when it is merely a form of control? How is being kited, feared, massively outdamage, silenced/interrupted, or mana burned any less of a form of control? Oh yeah, those are still useful and reliable in Arena, unlike stunlock.
Survivability:
Warriors have higher armor, the same, if not more stamina, and equal Resilience to Rogues while still maintaining absurdly higher damage output. They are far harder to kite and have many talents like Second Wind and Iron WIll that are in easy to reach spots in a tree they are filling anyway to combat their weaknesses. And a single Paladin buff removes their one and only weakness.
There is really little to no reason at all to bring a Rogue instead of a Warrior, who makes you rogues to be a joke.
http://www.geekboys.org/arena/ < Just go through the numbers. "
