Regional FlagRogue Bugs and Nerfs - A Compilation Part 2!Source
Target Source
#0 - 2007/09/10 03:27:54 PM
The first part of this topic can be seen here!

Wow, so now we're on the second part of this topic and things just seem to have gone from bad to worse since the creation of this topic there have been more nerfs given to us and no sign of any light at the end of this long dark tunnel. However I will get to that later.

I did not expect this topic to be so well received, with many Rogues coming in to share thier opinions, other classes also coming in with thiers and offering thier support, and ofc the unavoidable troll or two. Not only that but it has also been getting feedback from outside these forums, getting attention from Warcry Network ( and having another topic on Allakhazam (;mid=1187152372143921623;num=100;page=1). This has inspired me to keep this going, in hopes that our voices will truely be heard and that we get more than "It is being looked into". So i want to thank you all for all the feedback and for making the First Part of this topic as well received as it was.

To start with this topic i'm going to be starting by revisiting some of the points I made back in my first topic, as due to new information and research put in my opinions on the points i made on my first topic have changed. So lets begin with that. Many things I still have the same feelings toward so for a better look at that please consult the first part as it will save topic space posting the same thing here.

1) TBC - Level 70 and introduction of Resiliance. (Main Concern: PvP)

My thoughts on this remain unchanged. I still strogly believe that the Stamina Buff and the Introduction of Resiliance has caused the Rogue class to no longer become the scary face in PvP it once was, and is causing us problems in PvP because of it.

Some new information has recently come through however. In the 2.2 patch, Resiliance will now affect Damage over Time affects and reduce the damage dealt by them depending on your resiliance. Now on the PTR the reduction of DoT damage seems to match that of the reduction of Critical Strike damage, so high end PvPers can expect with thier resiliance to get a 20%+ damage reduction to DoTs. Now this mainly affects the Warlocks and the Shadow Priests here since most of thier damage is reliant on DoTs, however this also affects out own DoTs aswell which is argueably our primary source of damage against the likes of Warriors and Druids. Thanks to this reduction our effectiveness against these classes has been significantly dropped (as if we didn't have enough problems with those classes before). So although not direct a further nerf to our PvP damage overall.

2) The Vanish Bug (Main Concern: PvP however PvE is also affected)

Well it's still existant in the PTR and in the Live Realms so my thoughts still remain unchanged that this is a serious bug that should be sorted out, as it is effectively nerfing our class. Although i've been getting comments that it doesn't affect us too greatly since only 2 classes use pets widely, and thats Hunters and Warlocks. But they don't seem to know that nearly every class and thier grandmother has pets now except Warriors, Paladins and Rogues and they give us the same trouble as the Hunter and Warlock pets do. Lets see:

Hunters: They got thier Pets
Warlocks: They got thier Summons
Preists: Have access to Shadowfiend
Mage: Have access to Water Elemental
Shaman: Have access to Fire and Earth Elemental Totems
Druids: Have access to Treants, while not exactly pets still cause us the same problems

So this bug extends far past the likes of Hunters and Warlocks, the most common pet users as while not widely known these other classes "Pets" also cause us problems.

It has also been mentioned that Vanish can break immediately after use, generating something like.

Q u o t e:

You use Vanish.
You gain the effect of Vanish.
You lose Stealth.
Vanish fades from you.

All within the same couple of seconds, this is also another serious problem and added onto the Vanish Pet Bug, makes Vanish more and more unreliable.

There is also another problem that seems to cause our aggro not to reset from a PvE point of view after using vanish, which can also cause problems if we think we're in the clear threat wise then within a few seconds take threat and get killed.

3) The Windfury Nerf (Main Concern: PvE)

Some have come up and said that the Windfury Totem Nerf is not that big of a deal and should not affect our DPS that badly. I however disagree as on average, we are using a special attack once every 3 seconds and going by the percentages the Windfury totem has to proc, we get Windufry once every 15 seconds from a Special Attack. Consider that most large boss fights can span out for a long period of time, this in time makes the DPS drop from this nerf bigger depending on how long the fight is.

4) Kiting (Main Concern: PvP)

Ok a lot of people here have called this the weakness or flaw of the Rogue class and that asking this to be fixed would be basically asking for "God Mode". I however disagree and the reasoning for it is due to how other classes that are subjectable to kiting, have better Anti-Kiting abilities than we do, or at the very least more accessable.

First of all Rogues have 3 ways abilities wise to get out of a Kiting effect. They use Cloak of Shadows if it is a Magical effect, Vanish to escape from most Snares and other forms of kiting effects, and if they have Improved Sprint then they can use that also to escape from movement impairing effects and snares. Sounds all fine and dandy right? Well it isn't because Coak of Shadows is on a 1 minute cooldown, and Vanish and Sprint are on 5 minute cooldowns (3.5 Minutes at best)! Most other classes have access to an Anti-Kite ability which is on a 30 second cooldown or less, such as the Warriors Intercept, Paladins Blessing of Freedom and Druids Shapeshifting. Argueably you could say Crippling Poison kites way better than anything else... why would a Melee Class want to Kite at such a range where he cannot Melee?

5) Resisted Cheap Shots do not yeild Combo Points (Main Concern: PvP)

Many people were confused over why I included this aswell, my reasoning for it is twofold. First of all, Druids get an ability called Pounce. This basically acts in a similar way to our openers as when used in Stealth it will stun the enemy and in addition apply a bleed effect on the enemy. Now like our Cheap Shot the stun can get resisted, however they still get full Combo Points for the attack. Why? Because the Bleed effect still kicks in. The second reason is due to Stun Resistance in general, since Warriors can have up to 20% Stun Resistance, Stun Resist Metagems being widely used in PvP, and Orc Warriors having a Sickening amount of Stun Resistance, aswell as Orc anything for that matter.

6) Off-Hander availability (Main Concern: PvE)

I'm still standing behind this as this is a major problem, however I think i should go more in depth with this. Off-Hander availablity Pre-TBC was vast and plentiful due to the faster the OH the better, however there wasn't a specific number you should go for, aslong as it was faster than say... 1.80 seconds. However in TBC, Rogues were given the ability Shiv, which depending on our OH weapon speed, costs less energy to use. However this also meant using OH Weapon speeds that would normally have been acceptable, can no longer be reliable due to making shiv cost an odd amount of energy and being close to the same cost as Sinster Strike.

Thus this made the new generally "great" weapon speed 1.50 seconds or lower, which in TBC such items are in very short supply, in some cases such as Swords and Maces have OHs in Normal Instances, with not a better Off-Hand in sight until the likes of Hyjal and Black Temple. The only way around thiss is to do Arena, and I for one do not like being FORCED into doing Arena just to get a good Off-Hand Weapon.

7) Arena Viability (Main Concern: PvP and PvE Players seeking an Off-Hand)

Nothing more I can comment on, except this:

Q u o t e:

The worst part being the Devs know this and yet we are still getting nerfed left right and centre by them. The fact the Devs can say that Rogues aren't effective in 5v5 without so much as batting an eyelid gets to me, but continuing to nerf things that are important to us in Arena Play (Like Sap) grinds my gears further.

Rings truer due to what more has arisen since the time I made this post.

8) Crowd Control PvP Nerf (Main Concern: PvP)

Nothing more to add here neither.

9) Energy Regeneration loss after Opener in PTR 2.2 (Main Conern: Both PvE and PvP)

Still potentially a problem, but i still need to find some official information about this.

10) The Wrath of the Lich King - The Speculations (Main Concern: Both PvE and PvP)

All the same concerns now, however another point to be added is that of Thistle Tea and other Energy giving items. They're almost completely worthless now, and when WotLK comes out they will no doubt never be heard from again and this saddens me personally as I like Energy giving items like that and I would very much like to see them return stronger to make them worth using again.

Next post will go over what has recently come to the attention of the Rogue class, as well as new points added onto the current 10 here.

Blue Poster
Target Source
#105 - 2007/09/21 02:46:39 PM
Just blue-tagging this to let you know that we are following this thread and reading the things you have to say.

Q u o t e:
Give us the buffs the Rogue class has been crying out for since the beginning of TBC and give us the PvP Buffs you've promised us at Blizzcon!

We don't have any new updates on this in regards to the things that was said at Blizzcon, but we will of course keep you informed when we have more information available.

Thanks for the feedback you have posted so far :-)