Anyone else ever been OUTdpsed...

Q u o t e:
...by a Moonkin Druid? I have done quite some heroics (got my 41 badge for trinket today :P) and a little Kara (prince) and I have never (as far as I can remember) been outdpsed by anyone with equal gear as me until today when I was in the same group as a Moonkin druid (for the first time ever I as a mage is in the same group as a moonkin druid) and we had similar gear (he had a little better but not much) and to my big surprise he easily out dpsed me! I just couldnt keep up with him!

Should I be worried? Is it really possible that these "Primary healers, hybrids" are better "primary ranged magic damage dealers" then us Mages...who are supposed to be just that..."Primary ranged magic damage dealers"?

I spoke to the druid about this and he told me that he outdps all mages with similar gear! He also said he did cause Blizz screwed Mages up when it comes to scaling! That Druids scale better with caster gear then mages do!

Any thoughts on this? Anyone who can confirm the scaling thingy he spoke about? And if so, in what way are our scaling screwed up?

Moonkins outDPS'ing Mages is more the exception than the norm in my opinion. Moonkins can do a lot of damage indeed, but it would require very good gear (if not more than that), for one Moonkin to constantly beat Mages when it comes to pure DPS.

Someone else in this thread also mentioned that the Moonkin has very good damage spells against single targets, whereas the Mage is more AOE oriented. Additionally it was mentioned that the Mages single target damage spells usually have a longer cast time or cooldown than the single target damage spells of the Druid. I think that this is somewhat true and that this will most surely have an influence on measuring the overall DPS output when fighting against single targets.

I do not think however, that Mages should feel threatened by Moonkin Druids. Mages in my opinion deal very good damage and they have some extremely useful and quite needed utility abilities on top of that as well, which are very beneficial in both PvP and in PvE… Utility abilities that the Moonkin cannot deliver at all, or at least not as well.

What I am trying to say is that Moonkins are strong, but so are Mages, and the two cannot really be compared. Many classes have similar things and abilities to other classes, but despite those similarities, each class is unique in its own way and therefore has its own thing that it can bring to the fight… Again; this is all just my own personal opinion on this topic :-)

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Oh dear....you have no idea what you've gotten yourself into, have you?

I may have made a mistake by posting my personal opinion Indeed, but I thought it was an interesting topic to discuss so I took the risk of posting in hopes that I would not get flamed to slag :-)

Q u o t e:


Generally, no, you can't compare classes. But in this case you can, because you have a damagemeter. It's simple, really.

Damage meters do not take the differences of classes and class utility into account, all they do is measure the amount of damage delivered. Example:

A well geared Moonkin might have a change of gaining higher DPS on single target than en equelly geared Mage. Therefore in a fight versus a single target, the Moonkin would get a better score on the damage meter. But if it was a fight versus several targets, the Mage could deal much more damge with his powerful AOE abilities, and in such a fight the Mage would get a better score.

I really do not think it is a good thing to base ones arguments on damage meter results, because damage meters cannot measure all factors and variables that have influence on fights and they cannot measure the efficiency and influence of class utility.

I personally dislike damage meters quite a bit as you might have guessed, because I do not think they give an accurate view of efficiency.

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Mage = DPS-class. We sacrificed survivability for DPS, and hence we should be on top of druids with ease.

Not ne

Druid = Hybrid class. They can do pretty much it all, and choose to specialize in certain things. But even if they specialize in the mage's area of the game, they still have the ability to tank, do decent melee DPS AND heal. Mages can only do 1 of those things.
Hence, if a druid outdamages a mage of equal gear and skill, you have a serious class-balance problem.

Well yes and no. I can follow your logic and the way you look at things, but in my opinion I think you look at things a little too black and white and you focus too much on comparing classes, which is mistake since classes cannot and should not be compared due to their different types of utility and abilities that cannot be measured precisely by damage meters.

Again I wish to say that a Moonkin Druid outDPS’ing a Mage belongs more to the exception than the norm… By far the most Moonkins will not be able to outDPS a Mage of equal level and with equal gear.

All classes that are specced for DPS should deal high damage, granted some of those classes should do more damage than others, but there should not be a huge gap between one DPS class and another. The reason for this is that there should be a lot of room for choice and variation when putting groups together for PvP or PvE, and strict pigeonholing and very fixed role positioning is counterproductive to that ideal. It is the same reason why there are several classes that all can tank fairly well, and several classes that all can heal well.

Back to the DPS classes: The Mage class is a DPS class indeed and it is a top damage dealer, and when it comes to damage dealing the Mage has an advantage over the Moonkin for various reasons. One of those reasons is that the Mages more easily can shape the way he deals damage to match and fit different types of encounters, whereas the Moonkin’s strength in DPS is more centered on handling single targets. A mage can do very efficient damage both to singular targets as well as multiple targets, which is a feature the Moonkin cannot not repeat. Sure the Moonkin has some AOE capabilities as well, but not very efficient both logistically, damage wise and mana wise. Another example on the Mage’s greater utility at dealing and shaping damage is that the Mage have access to 3 schools of Magic whereas the Moonkin only have access to 2 schools.

The Strength of the mage is clearly the high DPS of the class together with some very efficient crowd control abilities. The Mage is indeed more fragile than a Druid, but the mage have very good survival utility such as mana efficient ways of keeping distance to targets or getting out of harms way for short durations of time; advantages that the Moonkin doesn’t have nearly to the same degree.

The strength of the Druid class is that it has fairly easy access to many very different play styles throughout the game. Yes, a Moonkin Druid can switch forms and tank to some degree, or switch out of Moonkin form to heal, which you seem to be highly focused on, but you seem to forget that the Moonkin druid cannot do those things at the same time during combat. If A Moonkin druid wishes to change his role during combat, then he must spend a lot of time and mana to do so; both things that are vitally important not to lose when in the middle of a fight.

And then we have all the non combat utility, where I would say the mage clearly have much to offer where the druid lacks somewhat behind. I am sure that Moonkins would love to have the same abilities to save time by using portals as a means of transportation, or to be able to conjure water to regain mana efficiently and cheaply.

And now after I have written all this text I realize that I am doing the same mistake… I am focusing too much on comparing classes, so what I should have said was that Moonkins are powerful, but so are mages. Mages have some advantages whereas Druids have others. Mages are good in PvP and PvE and so are Moonkins.

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Wait... why do I need to tell you this? I thought you had a job on this board and these are just the basics... :S

There is no need to get personal and insulting. The fact that I work for Blizzard does not mean that my knowledge, my views and my opinions have to be identical to yours, and I would like you to think about that. We are two different people and we therefore have two different ways of looking at things, and if we can both acknowledge and accept that, then we have the foundations for mutual respect and civility.