Regional FlagRemove our deadzone please.Source
Target Source
#0 - 2007/06/23 12:34:36 AM
01. Introduction
02. Class analisys and comparisons
03. What is our "Deadzone"
04. Why our "Deadzone" was acceptable pre TBC
05. Why our "Deadzone" is unacceptable in TBC
06. Why removing our "Deadzone" will not overpower our class in TBC
07. Reasons for removing our "Deadzone" by other hunters
08. Possible solutions for our "Deadzone" removal
09. Valid statments from other hunters

01. Introduction
In the past few months since many hunters have reached level 70 and have experianced it's game play.
Me and loads of others have noticed that their is something wrong with our class that should have been removed ages ago.
This thread's intension is to give blizzard a reason to consider removing our deadzone of giving us an escaping possibility or something that will increase our survival in PvP.

02. Class analisys and comparisons
In the beginning before the classes were summerized on the website, we had been given a deadzone.
This has never been fixed and eventually it was stated on the website as it being a hunter class natural weakness.
This weakness is something we can not get rid of by no spec available.

Hunter Strengths and Weaknesses:
  • Can tame and control various beasts
    Excellent long range damage capability
    Good at stopping enemies from fleeing
    Effective at pulling monsters in dungeons and raids
    Great crowd control abilities thanks to traps that cause damage, slow or even freeze enemies

  • Weaknesses
  • Possesses very few melee abilities
    Has a "Dead Zone" where neither ranged nor melee attacks can be used
    Unable to heal self or party members

  • - We are good at stopping enemies from fleeing, but it seems all other classes have an ability like this.
    - We are effective at pulling monsters in dungeons and raids and we still are. (Misdirection)
    - We "had" Great crowd control abilities in PvP thanks to traps that cause damage, slow or even freeze enemies, untill the trinket change and then it was bye bye hunter (with traps on a 30 secs cooldown + diminishing returns).
    - We have had very few melee abilities since level1 and still do.
    - We have had a "Dead Zone" since level1 and still do.
    - We were unable to heal ourselfs or others since level1 and still cant. (healing is not the same as using healing pots or using a bandage btw.)

    Lets do a little comparison with other classes when we look at their Weaknesses.
    And if they also still have their weakness and if we can even call this a weakness.
    Just so no confusion be made. i want to make clear that the point of view is mainly PvP (Arena) related.
    (if i say no weakness below i am meaning that the weakness can be overcome with gear and/or talents.)

    Druid Weaknesses:
    - Animal forms are not as powerful as their counterpart classes?
    Is that a weakness? Think Feral. Bearform? DPS Cat? in PvP? Deadly + healing ability? aka no weakness.
    - Restricted to wearing cloth and leather armor?
    Does is really matter if you are stacked up on resillience and can simply heal back to full health with a HoT? aka no weakness.
    - Can't use all items or spells while in the various animal forms?
    Is this really a weakness when you can simply stun and healup in the meanwhile? aka no weakness.

    Mage Weaknesses:
    - Restricted to wearing cloth armor
    Cloth is definatly a weakness, but it balances with being a glass cannon.
    - melee capability and low hit points
    Low hitpoints? thats a new one for me. Ever actually seen a mage doing Melee? aka no weakness
    - Has no healing ability
    true, the same as hunters

    Paladin Weaknesses:
    - Heavily dependant on mana for offense and defense abilities
    A Paladin with mana problems? thats a new one for me. aka no weakness
    - No ranged capabilities, except to stop wounded opponents from fleeing
    Isnt slowing down all you need in order to get in melee range? but might be seen as a weakness
    - Limited abilities with which to draw enemy attacks
    no comment

    Priest Weaknesses:
    - Restricted to wearing cloth armor
    Cloth is a weakness, but it can be overcome with certain specs, resillience & +healing. aka minor weakness
    - Poor melee capabilities and low hit points
    Low hitpoints? It balances with the ability to Heal and its HP aint even that low. Ever actually seen a priest doing Melee? aka no weakness
    - Requires concentration and quick reflexes if healing in parties
    Are you serious? This is not a weakness. This is simply saying that practice makes perfect.

    Rogue Weaknesses:
    - No party buffs available
    this can not be seen as a weakness
    - Restricted to wearing cloth and leather armor
    this can be seen as a minor weakness, since if well played in some cases they dont even get damaged at all
    - No healing ability available
    They can use melee weapon enchants like crusader and battlemaster aka no weakness (these enchants give you a "self-healing or party-healing ability")

    Shaman Weaknesses:
    - Most totems are easily destroyed when attacked directly
    Is this a weakness if they can be reapplied at the same speed? Personally i wouldnt call this a real weakness in PvP. aka no weakness
    - High dependence on mana pool for offense and survivability.
    Mana problems can usually be overcome with gear. aka no weakness (but do correct me if i am wrong)
    - No long duration party buffs available
    I dont see how this is a weakness for the class. aka no weakness

    Warlock Weaknesses:
    - Select spells and abilities require soulshards
    This is the same as playing a hunter with no ammo (although no ammo has a bigger impact for our actual dps ;) ) . aka no weakness
    - Restricted to wearing cloth armor
    Minor weakness wich can be overcome with selfbuffs and PvP gear (+resillience)
    - Limited melee capability
    Most definatly no weakness

    Warrior Weaknesses:
    - No healing ability available
    They can use melee weapon enchants like crusader and battlemaster aka no weakness (these enchants give you a "self-healing or party-healing ability")
    - Limited long range damage capability
    Yes this can be considered as a weakness, but they have got skills/talents to come in Melee range
    Limited ability to buff party members
    Most definatly no weakness

    Conclusion about class Weaknesses:
    A weakness is something we should not get rid of.
    Yet all other classes have a method of reducing their weakness, completly remove it or it being so balanced they wont notice if they assume another role.
    They can do this with gear, talents or enchants.
    Hunters can spec however they want, but will not get rid of their weakness.
    We will still have only a few melee abilities available to us.
    We will still have our deadzone.
    We will still have no healing capability.

    03. What is our "Deadzone"
    Before i start giving the reason why our deadzone should be removed, i will first explain what our deadzone actually is.
    There seems to be some confusion among the hunters when i see some of the replies.

    As a hunter you have the ability to perform Melee and Ranged attacks.
    Both of these attacks have a minimum and maximum range.

    Melee Minimum Range: 0 Yards
    Melee Maximum Range: 5 Yards

    Ranged Minimum Range: 8 Yards
    Ranged Maximum Range: 35 Yards (41 Yards if you have the Hawk Eye Talent.)

    This means the following:

    0 Yards<------Melee----->5 Yards<-----Deadzone----->8 Yards<-----Ranged----->35 Yards (or 41)

    *For those who use the metric system: 3 yards equals 2.7432 meters.*

    Our deadzone is a part where we cant use Melee nor Ranged attacks.
    (The line above i assume we are in a Arena thus can not use Granades and we have a hunter who has either scatter shot on CD or does not have it.)

    04. Why our "Deadzone" was acceptable pre TBC
    Our deadzone was acceptable for various reasons when we all were still level 60.

    Here is a list of reasons:
    - The total sum of talents available to others classes versus our own we equally balanced.
    - We were given an big upgrade with an ability to kill with the slightly overpowered arcaneshot thus our kiting abilities/effectifness were at its maximum.
    - We had so many changes over time and had to adapt very often to a different play style, but so did the other classes in order to kill us.
    - There was no battle grounds available apart from Skirmishes, thus it was not looked at seriously on a competitive level.
    - It was all Rock-Paper-Scissors pre TBC

    Blue Poster
    Target Source
    #50 - 2007/07/05 04:00:50 PM
    Q u o t e:
    Topic says it all.

    Well it tells what you like to see happen, but nothing more than that really.

    Q u o t e:
    It has become obsolete

    How so?

    Please try to be more elaborate when making such claims, because "It has become obsolete" doesn't really give us any valuable feedback that we can use for anything.

    Where are the examples and/or proof that demonstrates why it is obsolete?
    Where are the data and/or documentation to support your arguments that it should be removed?

    Blue Poster
    Target Source
    #51 - 2007/07/05 04:02:07 PM
    Q u o t e:

    Hunter Mage
    . /|\} */weep*........... ☼ ☼..>| */cackle*
    ~/ \~ <-nova'd....................../ \
    <--Melee range--><--Deadzone--><----------------Ranged---------------->

    What's wanted

    Hunter Mage
    ..O < Pew pew)..................O <q'q')
    ../|\} - - - - .................☼ ☼. >|
    ~/ \~ <-nova'd....................../ \
    <--Melee range--><--------------------------------------Ranged---------------->

    Hunter Mage
    ../|\. / .☼ ☼...>|
    ~/ \~................/ \
    <--Melee range--><--------------------------------------Ranged---------------->

    Notice the 1337 / for a melee stick! instead of the bow of mad Brackets }

    Not pew pew too the face

    Hunter Mage
    ..O..<pew pew)O
    ../|\.} - - ☼ ☼....>|
    ~/ \~ ................../ \
    <--Melee range-->

    Fixed it :D


    What a lovely illustration :-D

    Blue Poster
    Target Source
    #59 - 2007/07/05 04:15:45 PM
    Q u o t e:

    Incomming in this thread as soon as i got enough time to write a long extensive post with all of the required.

    Cool... Looking forward to it, because the better the data and arguments are, the more easy it is for me to gather feedback :-)

    Q u o t e:
    but thanks for the reply.

    No problem matey :-)

    Blue Poster
    Target Source
    #61 - 2007/07/05 04:18:13 PM
    Oh and thanks to the other people posting inhere as well :-)

    Blue Poster
    Target Source
    #238 - 2007/07/06 02:50:05 PM
    Q u o t e:

    Enjoy the read Vaneras. It seems im out of space.
    ps. there are loads of other solutions to fix our hunter problems stated in this thread.

    I did enjoy reading it, but I must say that I personally do not agree with some of the things you have to say. But what I think is of small importance, because what matters is that you (and others) actually posted data and arguments to support your claims.

    I have also seen some people who disagree with your claims and who posted counter arguments to support their reasoning, and I must say that this was an interesting discussion to follow. :-)

    I have taken notes from both sides of this discussion, which I will make sure gets forwarded to the developers. Let's see if we can get some feedback on this matter, but again I would like to point out that I cannot promise that we will get any feedback at any time soon.

    Please note however, that you should not expect to see any full class revamp before the next expansion, but that doesn't mean that there won't be any tweaks and changes done in order to improve the Hunter class. The developers are aware that the Hunter class is one of the classes that are less represented in the Arenas, and that is something they are looking into.