Please do away with faceroll AoE tanking

Q u o t e:
What I'm getting at is that threat should not be frustrating to hold, and the inability to tank large packs of mobs should not be because we just don't have the threat for it. Rather, the inability to tank large packs of mobs should come from the inability to survive large packs of mobs in the first place.

Yeah, we'd basically agree with that. The risk should be that the tank will die, not that the tank can't hold aggro. However I have to caveat that because otherwise any time anyone ever fails to hold aggro for whatever reason they'll blame it on their tools instead of taking some responsibility for hitting the right button or gearing correctly. Threat still needs to matter as a mechanic

And without launching into class warfare again, we think the paladin is a little too good in the AE department so we'd rather bring them down than bring everyone else up. You also need to compare tanks at the Naxx level, not the Icecrown level for purposes of threat.

Put succinctly, imagine all 4 tanks tank groups about as well as a warrior tanked groups in Naxx, but that the mobs hit harder and AE damage was a little lower such that you wanted to CC and single target more of the pulls (but not every pull -- there is still a place for Blizzarding them all down). That's the goal.

Q u o t e:
Uh.. what? You dont compare people at a lower tier of gear, you compare them at the highest, or at best every tier.

You compare us at the lowest tier and we get things like warrior scaling and class imbalance at the end game, which is what matters.

I don't even design MMOs and i can tell you what would happen if you balance at the low tier when you want to fix things for the higher tier.

Unless you mean you're putting t10 geared tanks in naxx, You're going to end up with things like everyone doing 4k aoe tps in nax, then suddenly paladins and druids doing 10k aoe, warriors doing 4k tps in icc.

My comment seemed to have confused a lot of people. The point was that we know we have a scaling problem where dps specs increase their dps by more than tanks increase their dps. Warrior AE tanking felt on target in Naxx but started slipping behind as the mages and rogues were improving their gear. I was trying to share our goal, which was that AE tanking should feel (at all levels, unless you're overgearing stuff) the way AE tanking in Naxx felt, with two exceptions: 1) AE damage is lower for the dps specs, 2) Sometimes those mobs in those packs hit harder such that just rounding them all up can be dangerous for the tank.

Q u o t e:

And i am sick and tired of being the goddamn scapegoat class, I can name 3 classes right now that have been running around facerolling their way to 2200s in arenas since season 6, but the paladin is doing a little better on TRASH PULLS and the discussion of nerfs start coming up?

Leave us the hell alone already, God. Damn. It.

"Don't nerf me bro."

You guys are welcome to post what you want (within limits), but I'm not personally interested in having another discussion in this thread about whether paladins are overpowered or repressed by the man.

My point was to share how we think AE tanking should feel (relatively easy to maintain threat but still asking the tank to actually stay awake and push buttons) and where the risks should be (the tank dies / the AE spamming becomes inefficient). We like the warrior model. They push more than one button. More generation is active than passive. They do still have to consider threat as a mechanic. That's more of what we're going for (again, the way it felt in earlier raid tiers. The threat has slipped behind as damage fell behind in later tiers). Druids by contrast can just spam Swipe, which gets boring. Paladins get too much benefit out of HoR + SoC (at the very least) such that they risk pulling off of other tanks but have relatively little chance of ever losing aggro to dps. The chance to lose threat can be relatively low, but it can't be absolutely trivial or we might as well let you spam Commanding Shout.

Q u o t e:
Quote" GC was talking about generating infinite threat to hold mobs while they were being AE'd, not during mob pickup. Mob pickup has never EVER been a problem as long as ppl in your raid were not idiots.

I believe he was trying to refer to Challenging shout, which forces all mobs within 8 yards to focus on you.

Here are ways we could make AE tanking trivial. None of these are things we would actually do, though players have suggested some things dangerously close to them.

-- Challenging Shout has no cooldown. Everything is pretty much taunted to you the whole time.
-- You can tank everything by spamming Commanding Shout. (Back when say warriors tanked the pre-Nef adds, they could do it by spamming Battle or Demo Shout, which generated terrible threat but just enough to actually work on that encounter. Now it really won't work... but it could with the right numbers.)
-- Thunder Clap hits so freaking hard that you hit it once and never really have to again.
-- Thunder Clap puts a dot on everything (stronger than Deep Wounds) so that you hit it once and never really have to again.
-- Defensive Stance has an 8000% threat modifier.

Those ideas would all work if we wanted you to never lose threat. That's not the goal. On the other hand, the goal also is NOT:

-- Some tank classes just generate a lot more AE threat than others.
-- Some tank classes just AE tank a lot easier than others.
-- AE tanking gets harder and harder over time as dps specs gear up.
-- AE tanking is really, really challenging and you're at the constant risk of losing aggro.
-- Just for completeness, I'll add the original one above, which is that you never, ever lose threat no matter what.

What we like about the warrior AE tanking model that is worth extending to other classes without just duplicating the warrior abilities:

-- You hit more than one button.
-- You hit different buttons than you do when handling single targets.
-- You have to pay attention to crowd controlled targets.
-- You don't totally ignore your single-target abilities.
-- You might switch targets on some pulls.

Q u o t e:
And I am damn well going to QQ and vent when i have been nerfed almost every single patch since wotlk launch (Go ahead, look through patch history on wowwiki, Note theres been undocumented changes and hotfixes between them you may not find on the notes)

You are welcome to share with us how you feel. That's part of the purpose of these forums. If it crosses over from that to junking up our forum with ranty "Blizz hates me" threads that don't contribute anything intelligent to the discussion and actually discourages other players from posting to the extent where other players are asking you to please tone it down a little, then we'll simply ban you. The ball's in your court.

I'm not interested in turning yet another thread into a discussion of the role of the forums or how we communicate and I suspect neither are most of the other posters here, so that's all I'm going to say about it. :)

Q u o t e:
Option 1: Require 2H weapons for SoC. Won't have a negative impact on Ret's DPS, and will force Prot into using Vengeance or Righteousness. As for the leveling Ret Paladin, it shouldn't be too much of an issue. There are plenty of 2H options on the road to endgame, and if anything, it serves as a hint to players who are new to the game that the spec is designed around the use of Two-Handers.

I'm not sure the answer is just to prevent Prot from using Seal of Command. We like sub-speccing to some extent. I think part of the problem is the way HoR and SoC interact, but that doesn't mean the solution has to be one of them dies in a fire.