The warrior model? CC is not coming back

#0 - March 18, 2010, 9:49 p.m.

Ghostcrawler, Do you play this game or just sit in observer mode?

Q u o t e:
What we like about the warrior AE tanking model that is worth extending to other classes without just duplicating the warrior abilities:

-- You hit more than one button.
-- You hit different buttons than you do when handling single targets.
-- You have to pay attention to crowd controlled targets.
-- You don't totally ignore your single-target abilities.
-- You might switch targets on some pulls.

I have to wonder, and Im not just some overly critical group-thinker.

The only one of those points above which I would say are are even remotely the case is in the case of bears spamming swipe. As a prot paladin I have a very hard time out-aggoring swipe-spam.

Do you think paladins can hold aggro with just consecration?
DKs with only DnD ?

No and No.

I can't think of any tank that ignores their single target abilities. If they did, they would lose aggro in a split second to massive faceroll dps.

I run in a group on fridays nights on my shaman that is 11/12 heroic icc10 and our tanks struggle to hold aggro even while doing everything in their power. The dps warriors and warlocks hover around 90-99% threat at all times. Hell, the dps warrior twins (1fury1arms) have to intervene eachother just to reduce eachothers threat.

Face it Ghostcrawler, you're not bringing back CC. Its not going to happen. Its way too late for that.

Look, you can go ahead and try, but the overall dps playerbase has become so spoiled and so acustomed to AE facerolling that any move in the other direction will be met with outright rebelion.

If you were to go into any heroic or any raid right now and ask someone to CC a specific mob, they would blankly look at their screen and say "wtf?" and then laugh at you. This isn't going to change. Its now expect. Players feel entitlted to AE if they feel like it.

This is not Vanilla and it never will be again.

You may know game-design better than the playerbase, but you can't just stuff the monster you've created back into the closet.

Ghostcrawler

#10 - March 19, 2010, 4:47 a.m.

Q u o t e:
You know that all of those bullet points weren't supposed to all apply to Death Knights, Druids, and Paladins at the same time, right? That not everything is a tirade to bring the Paladin down? That the list was a list of things they'd like to see all tanks have when they AoE tank, and not just a list of what a Paladin/Druids/Dks all do not have?

This.

Q u o t e:
Face it Ghostcrawler, you're not bringing back CC. Its not going to happen. Its way too late for that.

Look, you can go ahead and try, but the overall dps playerbase has become so spoiled and so acustomed to AE facerolling that any move in the other direction will be met with outright rebelion.

Then they can have fun farming the normal modes I guess.

There can be something in between Heroic Shadow Labs when it shipped and Heroic Nexus today in your 251 / 264 gear. Stopping to crowd control some of the pulls isn't so terribly onerous, given that the dungeons themselves are a lot shorter than they were in the day when Scholomance was serious business.

I'll still argue some (but not all) of it was the gear. Naxx was available immediately and relatively undertuned, especially in the 25 player version. In BC I spent a lot of time finishing up all of those Shadowmoon quests with blue rewards so that I could handle Karazhan. In Lich King many of us were in Naxx before we saw some of the heroic dungeons. By the time we got back to those dungeons, we totally overgeared them.

Heroic Halls of Reflection isn't a great example because of the nature of the first room, but if you look at something like Heroic Pit of Saron, that dungeon took a bit of learning before it was a milk run. The pulls before the tunnel at the end typically require crowd control until you overgear it with raid drops and Frost badge gear.

But to go back to the Naxx example, if all the Blizzards, Pestilences and Volleys hit for less damage, then you'd single target stuff down more, and it all of the mobs weren't dying at once, then the tank would be in more danger from dying to too much damage. (This will be particularly true when block doesn't scale so well to lots of weak attackers.)

We give classes a lot of tools and when half of those tools (to exaggerate) aren't ever used, then classes feel shallow. Not every pull will require CC, but more of them will than today.