#0 - July 6, 2007, 12:17 a.m.
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I've read the OP in the "Compilation of Retribution Issues v2.1.0" thread by Cromfel and I pretty much agree with most of it.
I've also read the positive blue reply, which we hope means something is going to be done, way further on page 25: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=285172648&sid=1&pageNo=25
However, I was surprised that Cromfel's OP didn't seem to have anything about threat/aggro reduction for retri paladins. Was it mentioned in the 25 pages between that and the blue? And any blue confirmation that this is also being looked at?
As it stands, while some of this promised increase in retri raid utility would be nice, or even increased sustained DPS in PvE, I fear it all means pretty much nada if they don't fix our aggro issues.
SSC and most of The Eye have been on farm status for some time for my guild and I've since gone through full SSC clearings as retri with surprisingly good results: 5th on damage at Hydross every time and in most fights just after the rogues and some locks all the way up to Vashj. We are an end game raiding guild with some extremly skilled/geared/potted/motivated people, so others were definitely not slacking.
However, I've noticed that I've pretty much stretched the limits of aggro/threat as much as possible. I frequently have to stop attacking and I have to wait longer than most before engaging combat and that's obviously with BoS (everyone in raid except tanks have it). Raid buffed, if I don't stop, I will get aggro, regardless of who or what is tanking.
It doesn't matter if we get 100x our current damage, we won't be able to use it with the current threat.
>>Passive threat modifiers:
Looking at other melee classes:
You need 110% of MT threat to get aggro as a melee class.
Rogues: Passive 0.71 threat modifier
Warriors: Passive 0.8 threat modifier in zerker/battle stance
Feral druids: Passive 0.71 threat modifier in cat form
Enhancement Shamans: Normally 1.0 threat, but since TBC, they can receive -15% threat by putting 1 single point in "Spirit Weapons" (which also gives them the ability to parry). That talent is a no brainer and it means any PvE enhancement shaman will be at 0.85 threat modifier.
Retri Paladins: 1.0 threat. No modifiers.
Looking at ranged classes:
You need 130% of MT threat to get aggro as a ranged class.
Most classes have some sort of threat modifier spec, but even assuming unspecced passive 1.0, they need 20% more threat anyway to get aggro than melee (read retri paladins).
This means that out of all classes, paladins receive much more threat for much less damage done than any other class in the game. It's not damage that's the problem, damage/threat is.
>>Threat reduction/wipe abilities:
Looking further, ON TOP of passive threat reduction, most melee classes have some sort of aggro reduction ability (feint, cower) or even aggro wipe (vanish). Same goes for most ranged classes who have abilities on top of their ranged aggro reduction bonus (feign death, soulshatter, fade etc).
Keep in mind, BoP does not reduce aggro, neither does Divine Shield (same as ice block). They can save you if you grab aggro, but as soon as they wears off, you better hope the tank managed to get 10% more aggro than you (if you keep DPSing while DS is up, you will most probably keep aggro when you get out of it and die).
It's not even a problem of spike damage anymore, sure retri paladin spikes can be insane, but it's simply the fact that our TPS is too high with the right gear, we reach the threat cap. The only way to not get aggro is to get worse gear or stop attacking and do less damage.
What's the point of a damage spec if you can never use it fully due to threat? The problem is not the potential for damage, it's the possible damage without grabbing aggro.
Take rogues for example, they are the best melee DPS not mainly due to the fact that they do a lot of DPS, but because they are the kings of Damage/Threat ratio
>>Conclusion:
Unless retri paladins get some sort of PASSIVE, PERSONAL (not an improved BoS that everyone in the raid will get) threat modifier talent and/or some sort of threat reduction ability/threat wipe ability, it simply doesn't matter what sort of buffs blizzard will implement for the retri tree in form of more utility/sustained DPS, because it will all lead (and probably even faster with the buffs) to overaggroing and death, making the retri paladin again, not a viable pve DPS spec (which I assume the developers want to fix given what Omra wrote).
>>Solution:
1. Change paladin passive threat to 0.8 for melee and damaging spells. When Righteous Fury is up, it should add 20% threat along with the normal effect, bringing us back to the same 1.0 modifier (so it doesn't break prot).
or
2. Add a high tier retri talent for 1 point that reduces our threat multiplier (same treatment as elemental shammies "Sprit Weapons" change). Preferably just combine it with some current talent point so we don't have to spend more points in retri (for example combine it with SoC or Sanctity Aura or even when taking Crusader strike, you receive the -x% threat modifier).
or
3. A "reverse RF" that reduces threat from attacks by 20% ish.
Basically 1., 2. and 3. are pretty much equivalent, just pointing out that it's easily doable to make retri DPS viable.
Also other solutions:
4. Some sort of soulshatter like ability, or a complete aggro wipe (when using Avenging Wrath? Saw that mentioned somewhere), or a periodic aggro reduction ability like feint.
>>Notes:
While threat/aggro is my main issue and I don't want to derail from this I'll just briefly highlight a couple other things that I think are important (some have been posted before).
1. Better mana efficiency for retri. Something like Shamanistic rage in shammy enhancement tree would make most sense. I can keep up mana with Alchemist's Stone + Super Mana Potions, but that is sort of extreme.
2. JoC *HAS* to be changed to melee hit instead of spell hit. No one will ever have spell hit in their retri gear, neither does the itemization exist, so expecting paladins to have it is silly.
3. Either an increase of judgement timer or a decrease of crusader strike (to 8 seconds?) to make keeping up judgements as a sole retri paladin more viable.
4. I'd love to see more true hybrid talents like in the druid feral combat tree: Nurturing Instinct (increases your healing spells by up to 50% of your Strength) or combined bonus talents like Heart of the Wild that benefit several of our abilties.
