Regional FlagCompilation of protection issues 2.1Source
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Katamai
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#0 - 2007/09/05 09:24:57 PM
Q u o t e:
By Tseric on 9th of March 2007:The devs actually mentioned today that Paladin tanking wasn't exactly where they wanted it to be and there would be attention paid towards that end of things. Overall, they do expect Paladins, Druids and Warriors to fill tanking roles in end-game, whatever they may be. While there may be a flavor distinction between tanks, we don't want to (or want the players to) find some rigid hierarchy by which classes are measured in their tanking potential to the third decimal point.


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=81920651

First of all, this is an open thread where i encourage all prot paladins to post the problems they face and if applicable, solutions to these problems.

This is not a "nerf holy/reroll/l2pay/i want to outtank a warrior" thread and should serve as a constructive compilation of issues we hope will draw Blizzard's and developer's attention. Also try to restrain yourself from saying "you can do X let war/druids do Z" as this is the thread highlighting differences between tanking classes and problems paladin tanks have compared to druids and warriors.

Another important thing is that most if not all of the problems i listed are about paladins tanking in 25 man raids and in current end game. Normal and heroic 5 man instances and Karazhan are quite different in group composition, encounters and mechanics although there is a certain number of issues that can be observed there, as well as in 25 man raids.

I intend to update this thread with corrections and changes as i am sure i have made some omissions and i hope other people will contribute to this thread.

If you don’t want to read the whole thread (which i would appreciate since i’ve put a lot of effort into it) you can jump to the summary at the end of this article.

SUMMARY -> http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=612225245&postId=6121918980&sid=1#8

As a tank, you need to do 2 things and you must do them perfectly, otherwise you fail. You need to be able to grab and keep threat, and at the same time be able to survive the fight.

THREAT

Threat (aggro) is keeping mob's "attention" through the mix of melee, special attacks, spells and abilities. Higher threat leads to higher dps and faster kills. It is one of the 2 essential roles any tank needs to perform.

Paladin threat, is in majority based on spell damage and it's commonly agreed that 200-400 (the higher, the better) SD is enough for a paladin tank to keep aggro. Higher threat means more dps but there is a big difference between burst and stable aggro. I will later explain why this is so important.

Let's compare our threat to other 2 tanks in this game. (I don't have much experience with druid or warrior tanks so corrections are welcome and will be made)

Warriors - threat based on melee damage and special attacks. Source of it all is rage which is generated through being hit and hitting the oponent. Very stable but takes a while to build up (the famous 5 sunders). 15% threat increase from Defiance talent and Shield Slam which "causes high amount of threat" as well as Devastate. As warriors progress in the game and gear up, their threat significantly increases and there is a big difference between warrior threat in 5 mans and blue gear and an epic geared tank in T6.

Strengths: Based on rage and can be reliably generated over long periods of time, very stable (due to constant rage flow), relies on being hit (as the source of rage), takes advantage of other stats warriors use both to increase their tanking and dps (str for shield block value, shield bash, AP and thus aggro from melee hits is also affected by it, agi for both armor and crit which produces extra aggro compared to normal hits).

Weaknesses: Takes longer to build up than paladin threat, not as effective on multiple targets, can suffer if melee or special attacks miss.

Druids - similar to warriors except for a few minor differences. Faerie Fire is there to (somewhat) compensate for the lack of sunder and with swipe druids make excellent multi-target tanks. Based on rage regenerated during combat. Stable threat based on melee hits and special (melee and bleed attacks). Feral Instinct talent increases threat by 15% while in bear form.

Strengths: based on rage like warrior threat, stable, like warriors, takes advantage of stats that increase both survivability and threat, bleed effects that increase raid dps and serves as threat over time, superior to warriors in multi-target tanking

Weaknesses: Like warriors, takes longer time to build up than paladin threat, more effective than warriors on multiple targets (swipe) but still less effective than paladins, hits can miss, be parried or dodged, mobs can be immune to bleed effects

Paladins - SD based threat relying on mana which is regenerated through Spiritual Atunment. Very high burst aggro but hard to sustain especially on long fights. Improved Righteous Fury increases threat from Righteous Fury by 50% (note, this does not increase the total threat but only the threat generated by Righteous Fury).

Strengths: high burst at the beginning of the fight which enables the highest dps at the start, superior to to both druids and warriors in AoE tanking, high threat generated through blocking while Holy Shield is active, consecration and SoV acting as ToT (threat over time), can be significantly increased with foods and oils, more effectively than it is for warriors and druids. If the fight involves Undead or Demons, paladins can use their undead/demon specific spells (Exorcism and Holy Wrath) to produce extra threat.

Weaknesses: based on mana and dependent on SA for mana regeneration which can be lacking, increase in survivability cause less mana received from heals and thus, less threat, variations in TPS with lows between Judgments followed by threat spikes, very dependent on reflective damage from Holy Shield, based on spell damage and melee damage (melee hits can be dodged/parried, can miss; spells can be reflected, resisted or mobs can be immune to spells), very vulnerable to spell shields, silence and mana burn.

Since a large portion of paladin threat is based on reflective damage, caster mobs and resistance fights are another example where paladin's superior threat generation is negated. This problem can be somewhat resolved by using consecration but since Consecration is a very expensive spell and is terribly ineffective on single targets, unless paladin is getting hit hard (boss encounters) he will usually run out of mana very quickly. This problem is even more pronounced after the Spiritual Attunment nerf in 2.1.

Immunity/spell reflect/mana burn/silence

In end game (25 man instances in particular but examples can be found as low as in heroic 5 mans) mobs on occasion cast "spell reflect" shields on themselves which brings paladin tps to the lowest lvls of all 3 tanking classes. With spell reflect we're unable to use holy spells to generate threat and it's very likely that we will lose aggro. Warriors and druids do not have these problems as spell reflect/shields do not affect melee based threat. Also worth noting is that there are no (to my knowledge) melee immune mobs (with or without castable spells) in TBC end game. Example of spell reflect mobs: heroic sethekk, SSC. Mobs immune to melee damage - none in TBC end game (as far as i know). Only known melee immune mobs are shades at Instructor Malicia in Scholomance.

It is rare but possible to engage mobs that are completely immune to spells which again drops our threat to the lowest lvls and makes us unable to keep aggro. Example: Wyrms in Karazhan

These kinds of mobs give a huge leg up to melee tanks (warriors, druids) compared to paladins and negate the initial threat advantage paladin tanks have.

Mana burn - since paladin threat is almost entirely based on spell damage and spells are casted through the use of mana, mana burn that some mobs use kills our main means of threat generation. Usually (and especially after the SA nerf) mana gained through heals is insufficient. Since mana burn also affects healers, it again reduces the amount of mana regenerated through SA. Mana burn also causes damage which does not affect warrior/druid tanks. Example - The Eye

Mobs with "rage burn" ability or able to reduce rage generation - Reliquary of Souls in BT, also does mana burn.

Silence - spell based threat is not generated if a paladin is unable to cast spells. Only help - Imp Concentration Aura which forces us to drop DA/RA/SA and increase the damage we take and only decreases the silence duration, does not cancel it. Example: heroics, SSC, The Eye

Mobs with "melee/special ability silence" - none (as far as i know)
Again, warriors and druids come on top.

Threat Summary

Even though paladins are superior in AoE tanking and have superior burst aggro, due to several game mechanics, they are extremely vulnerable compared to warriors and druids. There are 3 situations where we can hardy generate threat (spell shields/immunity, mana burn, silence), none of which affects druids and warriors. At the same time, all these situations cause raid leaders to doubt paladin tanks and their superior threat because other 2 tanking classes appear much more reliable in terms of threat generation. When taking a warrior/druid who cannot be affected by mana burn/silence/spell reflect, raids exclude that unknown variable paladin tanks bring.

When choosing between a tank with superior threat but vulnerable to several well known and used game mechanics or a tank with slightly lower threat but immune to the mentioned mechanics, guilds chose the second option. This is especially evident in end game and new content situations.

Another thing is that as they gear up, warriors close the threat gap to paladins almost reaching same levels of sustainable tps.

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Blue Poster
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#42 - 2007/09/06 02:22:44 PM
Q u o t e:
First of all, this is an open thread where i encourage all prot paladins to post the problems they face and if applicable, solutions to these problems.

This is not a "nerf holy/reroll/l2pay/i want to outtank a warrior" thread and should serve as a constructive compilation of issues we hope will draw Blizzard's and developer's attention. Also try to restrain yourself from saying "you can do X let war/druids do Z" as this is the thread highlighting differences between tanking classes and problems paladin tanks have compared to druids and warriors.


Very nice initiative, hence the blue-tag. :-)

It is always nice to gather feedback from constructive threads, so happy posting everybody, but please note that tanking is supposed to be different between Warriors, Druids and Paladins, just as healing is different between Priests, Paladins, Shamans and Druids. These classes can share roles with each other, but their approach and methods of fulfilling those roles are intended to be different from each other.

Q u o t e:
I intend to update this thread with corrections and changes as i am sure i have made some omissions and i hope other people will contribute to this thread.


Sounds very good.

In order to get a good overview in the compilation of issues and suggestions posted in this thread, please keep things short and straight to the point.

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#56 - 2007/09/06 04:07:10 PM
Q u o t e:


Is the level of viability also supposed to be different?



Yes and no. All classes who can tank are supposed to have their unique advantages in certain situations, but basically all classes who can tank should be able to full fill the tanking role satisfactory in one way or another.

What I am trying to say is that it is quite erroneous to compare classes since they are all different and is supposed to be different, but if a class has too many shortcomings fulfilling a role that it is intended to be able to fulfill, then by all means post about it... But be sure to skip the dramatization and instead go straight to the point, be precise and also try to give concrete examples and documentation of the shortcomings in play.

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#57 - 2007/09/06 04:08:57 PM
Q u o t e:


He's probably off getting permission on the wording of the answer. He did kind of walk into it though, I couldnt help myself. :)


These forums are very large with plenty of things happening at the same time, and there are other forums than just the Paladin forum that requires my attention :-)

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#67 - 2007/09/06 04:42:40 PM
Q u o t e:
Vaneras, way back in the beginning of March, I made a post about protection itemisation. My main points were that protection paladins need more health points, defense and spell damage on our gear to bring us up to par with warrior and druid tanking. I think the quotes added in the thread and the subsequent comments from more experienced protection paladins validated my points. See http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=206670938&sid=1&pageNo=1

Ommra replied in the thread (see http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=206670938&sid=1&pageNo=9#171) and stated that:
So we gave you a LOAD of feedback, and one of you blues replied that you had looked into it, passed it on and that things would change. And now you want more feedback.... without having acted on the previous feedback? I am confused. Sure, we will gladly keep providing you with feedback, but as far as I know, "the next content patch" after Ommra's post was patch 2.1, and unless I am mistaken there were no protection itemisation changes then. Also (again, as far as I know) there aren't any planned protection itemisation changes in patch 2.2. Now, I have rarely seen more concrete promises from a blue poster than what Ommra wrote. I also seem to recall that paladin tanking was mentioned at Blizzcon as an area which was being "looked into". Forum MVP Schwick still has the info about protection itemisation being adjusted in his sticky on the general forum (yes, I know he isn't a Blizzard employee, but still), and among the sources he quotes is Ommra's post.

So why even more feedback when you haven't acted on the old? And you said you were going to act on it. As always, whatever the answer is, please let us know. Information blackouts just cause anger. Bad news and good reasoning to explain the bad news is better than silence!


Ommra has ventured off to greener pastures and is not with us anymore, as someone has pointed out elsewhere in this thread. But that doesn’t mean that we stopped gathering and forwarding feedback to the developers, so I am very sorry if you have the impression that we are not doing anything or just ignoring the things you have to say.

The process of gathering feedback is a continuing one, so we don't just do it once and then wait six months and then do it again. Furthermore the process of changing, fixing and bringing new things to the game can be very time consuming so addressing issues will take time... Much more time than it takes for us to read your concerns and forward them to the developers. Finally it should be mentioned that the priorities of the developers may be somewhat different than those of yours. You are naturally and understandably very concerned about this since this is a matter that is affecting you right here right now, but you need to accept that some issues of other classes, or other issues that affect the entire playerbase overall, may be considered more serious by the developers than the current itemisation issues for Protection Paladins.

Itemization issues are being addressed though, and hopefully with the release of future patches you should notice some changes, improvements and new gear being added over time, some of which are results of previously forwarded feedback.

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#68 - 2007/09/06 04:53:21 PM
Q u o t e:

Well that was a boring answer, where was the witty banter? :P


Please accept my sincerest apologies, I will try to be more witty in the future :-)

Q u o t e:
Edit: Let me add an edit, just to give you something to think about.

Why is it for example that in 5 mans there isnt a single boss that I can think of that a warrior would be a better tank than a paladin on. And yet in 25 mans there are countless bosses where warriors are far superior, very few bosses where paladins are superior.

For example, the issue of fear, obviously warriors have the advantage of being able to break fear, so why is it that when im feared by the first boss in SL (Ambassador Hellmaw) I dont lose aggro, and yet I would if I tanked Nightbane?


A concrete example of what seems to be a shortcoming for tanking Paladins, and best of all it is presented in a short and straight to the point manner… A glorious example of what kind of feedback that we look for, which we consider being useful to gather and forward to the developers. Here you are not comparing classes, you are illustrating what seems to be a shortcoming :-)

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#79 - 2007/09/06 06:45:29 PM
Q u o t e:
Every time someone mentions this, I get sad. :-(


She is missed indeed.

Q u o t e:
Ah, yes, I fully appreciate and accept that. However, we were not the one setting the time schedule this time. The information that was given by an official blue post was that the issues we brought up were going to be addressed "in the next content patch". You can't really blame us for wondering what happened then, nor can we be blamed for expecting something which we were informed was going to take place at a particular time.


I am sorry if it sounded like I was transferring any fault or blame on you guys, because that really wasn't my intention. I was just trying to clarify that things take time.

I believe the exact choice of words Ommra used was "this concern should be addressed in the next content patch", where the word 'should' can be translated into 'is expected to'. Delays can happen, and I think that this is what happened in this case.

Q u o t e:
Vaneras, you just took away all the hope and promises which we were previously given. The message we got was a concrete answer that "yes, these particular things ARE being looked at, and WILL be changed". Whereas your answer again sets us back to the good old "progressively perhaps sometime in the future" answer.


Again I am sorry. I do not seek to take away your hopes, but I do try to be very careful with my choice of words... One of the curses of posting in blue is that people tend to twist and turn, to over-analyse or to take the things I said out of context, which is something that I am not a great fan of. Especially since what we say one day can be completely wrong the other day due to changes, delays or some other similar things :-)

Q u o t e:
Can't you at least say if this particular issue, namely the survivability of Paladin tanks, is a problem which has been shelved? Or perhaps even more interesting would be an answer to the question: Does Blizzard intend Paladin tanks to have the same survival capabilities as other tanking classes?

Just tell us. Please.


I thought I did already, but I will try to be more clear. Nothing has been 'shelved' and problems are being addressed, however it may take some time... Last thing I heard was that some of the issues with itemization in particular will be addressed in the future Zul'Aman patch, however since I am not entirely sure about that, I will try to dig up some more info on that.

Paladin Tanks are supposed to be a fully viable option to bring along to raids, so if there are too many shortcomings preventing that, then of course those things need to be addressed... Again I must clarify that it may take some time, but this should not discourage you from posting your concerns and suggestions :-)

Q u o t e:
Ps. Oh, and btw thanks Vaneras for doing a good job and paying attention! Always nice to see some blue in here, even if it's not always with happy news.


Thanks for the compliment. I do try to be of help as much as I can :-)

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Blue Poster
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#83 - 2007/09/06 07:01:40 PM
Q u o t e:


First, thanks for the blue tag and giving us with a glimpse of hope (as sceptic as i assume tankadins are :P)


No problem :-)

I know that things can be frustrating at times, so patience and hope is important.

Q u o t e:
As for tanking roles and styles, i completely agree with you but a clarification and a comment is needed.

Just as a holy paladin/priest/shaman/druid is able to heal, but do it with different set of tools and using different abilities, the same thing should be applied for tanks right? That is assuming i understood the statement that tanks should be equal in function/different in flavor.


That is basically right(with some exceptions of course); equal in function but difference in flavour :-)

The developers do want situations though, where for an example it may be a better choice to bring a certain class, but that should not be the same as only that class may tank in that situation.

Q u o t e:
But unlike for healers where there are no situations where one healing class couldn't heal, there are quite a few situations where paladins can't tank unlike druids and warriors.


And it is these situations you should post about... Preferably short and straight to the point together with concrete examples to illustrate the issue at hand (or if you will, the shortcoming in play that makes you non-viable as a tank).

Q u o t e:
Giving us each a niche (to be strong) and balance (be able to squeeze through on some encounters) would balance the playing field for all tanking classes.


I agree :-)

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Blue Poster
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#193 - 2007/09/11 01:43:17 AM
Q u o t e:
Lets see if Vaneras can dig up some more info on the upcoming Zul’Aman patch itemization changes. The time difference between CET and Pacific UTC time may not be working in our favour atm though.

Vaneras, old chum, you out there? Any news?


No updates yet, but rest assured that we have not forgotten about this.

We will keep you updated as soon as we get some news :-)