Ghostcrawler, swipe is not fun.

#0 - Dec. 15, 2008, 8:54 p.m.

It's truly annoying being GCD locked 24/7 with pretty much everything you do. And having mobs you haven't hit yet running through you between that GCD time and sacking your healer...really sucks and it makes people hate you.

All throughout BC, everybody who has run instances with me always told me that I was a good tank. But the more I go through wrath content, the more I feel that this is no longer true. I was first excited about druid tanking in wrath because of all of the improvements that were made to it, I especially loved that swipe could hit infinite targets now and I thought it was a godsend. But with the way the new wrath instances are setup...in many cases swipe just doesn't work.

A notable example is the Brann Bronzebeard event (or whatever you want to call it) in Halls of Stone. The trash train in this event just can't be sufficiently pulled by swipe. Unlike d&d and consecrate, swipe doesn't even reach the full width of that choke point, and since its not persistent, mobs can slip through while you are stunned or currently on a swipe GCD. It makes this event very difficult for a druid tank whereas its quite simple for any other tank. Usually the only way I can successfully complete this event is to have a dpser (preferably a plate wearer) drop down an aoe, and then stand right in front of me so that I can swipe to pull the trash off of them.

It's not just limited to this either, there are many pulls, bosses and trash, throughout heroics and raids (and I've done all of them already btw, I am not just blowing off steam here) that put a druid tank in a similar situation.

Something needs to be done to make it easier for druids to be able to at least pick up aoe targets. And then for boss pulls that include other ads, something needs to be done so that I can throw in maybe a mangle, lacerate, bash, barkskin, or some other button besides swipe without having to worry about missing trash that just walked by during the resulting GCD. Honestly, 99% of the time it feels like all I have time for is swipe, and it is really getting old.

PS> I know you guys don't like it when thread titles address blizzard employees, but I am already saying what other druid tanks are thinking here, so its a bit pointless for me to address them as well. I am also refraining from making any suggestions about what needs to be done, just stating that the current situation sucks and really shouldn't stay the way it is.

Ghostcrawler

#30 - Dec. 15, 2008, 5:27 p.m.

Q u o t e:
I don't believe GC either views or responds to these threads. They are numerous and all over the forum, never illicit a response. I'm guessing we just need to grab ankles and grin. or... spec tree/cat/boomchicken and level something you enjoy tanking on, I went Warrior myself.

No, I actually do read them.

I haven't commented on Swipe in some time because a lot of different arguments tend to get mashed together. That in turn makes it hard for us to detect if the ability actually isn't doing its job, or if [some] druids just want it to work differently, or if [some] druids want more different kinds of buttons to push.

Here are the arguments I typically see, roughly ranked in what I think is most to least important.

-- Swipe doesn't generate enough sustained threat.
-- Swipe doesn't generate enough burst threat.
-- Swipe's angle and target requirement make it hard to use.
-- Swipe is okay, but you want other abilities to throw in there with it (and without giving Swipe a cooldown).

Ghostcrawler

#114 - Dec. 15, 2008, 9:15 p.m.

Part of my point was that many of you are posting something to the effect of "All druids agree that the main problem is X," when even within a few posts you see wildly different opinions.

We aren't going to turn Swipe into Thunder Clap, and I don't think many of you are asking for that (though a few are).

The problem is if we changed the cone or if we changed the threat or if we added another ability, then a large portion of this thread at least would respond "But you didn't fix the problem."

So the kinds of discussions we are having are what changes to make to Swipe (if any) that will solve some of these problems without turning Swipe into Thunder Clap.

Ghostcrawler

#152 - Dec. 15, 2008, 10:30 p.m.

Right, but imagine we increased the threat generated by swipe by 400% (just for the sake of argument). Now it is possible to say:

Swipe generates so much threat that I can use Mangle, Maul, Lacerate, Bash, Feral Charge or Demo Roar without worrying about losing aggro.

I can spam Swipe, but why? After a hit or two I have more than enough threat. I can afford to save it even.

If the threat was high enough, it could have a cooldown to enforce not spamming it. (We'd be very reluctant to do this though.)

Swipe has a positional requirement which requires a little more planning or skill to use than Consecrate, but in return it generates a lot more threat.

My point above was that we are not going to make everybody happy, so you will probably find yourselves less disappointed if you don't get tied to the One True change that will fix Swipe for you.

It is very easy to look over at another character and think "Man, if I just had that ability, I could do my job so much better." That's a good thing. It means that other classes' abilities are so cool or useful that you want them. But for the same reason we are hesitant to give them to you because then the ability is less special and the classes all end up feeling really similar. If you ever switch from druid to warrior or paladin or DK, we want you to have to relearn the class. Make sense?

We want druids to be great AE tanks, and it may be that you aren't quite there yet. But we will almost certainly do it without removing the positional requirement AND adding a lot of threat to Swipe.

Ghostcrawler

#201 - Dec. 16, 2008, 6:52 a.m.

We think we might try increasing threat by 50% because that is something easy to hotfix. That should buy you enough globals to do other things, and provide enough wiggle room if you get a target out of the area for one Swipe. We'll consider additional changes after we've had a chance to see how that plays out.

Ghostcrawler

#288 - Dec. 16, 2008, 6:01 p.m.

The change for Swipe to generate an additional 50% threat is now live. Please let us know how it goes.

Ghostcrawler

#410 - Dec. 16, 2008, 11:47 p.m.

Just consider that a Swipe that generates a lot of threat with no targeting or positional requirement and no cooldown is almost immediately going to lead to the following:

"Druid tanking is soooo boring. I can just push one button and maintain aggro on anything. I can just macro Swipe to every keyboard and faceroll or bind it to my mouse wheel and tank while I surf the Internets."

Thunder Clap, Death and Decay and Consecration all have cooldowns for this reason.

To everyone who immediately responded "No, we didn't want more threat," please read the entire thread. I posted a couple of times that no set of changes is going to please everyone, and ultimately that isn't what we're trying to do (because it's not a realistic goal).