Druid Tanks... WTG Blizz

Q u o t e:
The overwhelming majority of posting druids are pissed to hell with where the class is going.

The overwhelming majority of posts are negative ones. I definitely would not take posting frequency or intensity on a topic as a reasonable barometer for how players feel.

Q u o t e:
I believe during the beta you said you paid more attention to "certain end-game guilds" than to the bulk of the playerbase.

On very specific issues, yes. I would trust the feedback of a highly rated gladiator or a realm first guild leader over someone whose skill and experience are unknown. But it works the opposite way too. Very hardcore players can sometimes suggest very hardcore solutions.

Q u o t e:
Is that why you ignored us when we said Bone Shield was too strong at high avoidance levels? In the beta Blizzard said Bone Shield was fine. Blizzard was wrong. Hence the upcoming change.

The issue wasn't that Bone Shield was too strong per se. It was that when Bone Shield was down, the DK died. Just buffing the DK without nerfing Bone Shield would make them the best tank in the game. Bone Shield was also making them too defensive in PvP, which was much harder to get good testing on during the beta.

Q u o t e:
Is that why Druids were ignored when we said Druid AOE tanking was terrible? Blizzard said it was fine. You were wrong. Hence the new change (which still isn't enough).

There were (and are) players saying that Druid AOE tanking was fine or possibly even too good. When you disagree with someone else then by your definition someone is getting ignored. All of this "all players agree" stuff is a little disingenuous.

Q u o t e:
Dismissing the player base (who are a lot more knee-deep into the game) is not a good idea, especially when the players have a better track record about being correct than the developers.

We don't dismiss the player base (or I wouldn't be here). Not sure I agree on that second part though. :)

Oh, then I saw Angua’s replies. Good responses there too.

Q u o t e:
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Q u o t e:
Is that why you ignored us when we said Bone Shield was too strong at high avoidance levels? In the beta Blizzard said Bone Shield was fine. Blizzard was wrong. Hence the upcoming change.
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Bone Shield is being changed for different reasons than what you always argued about. Bone Shield is being changed because when it is up, Death Knights were fine, and when it is down Death Knights are squishy.
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Q u o t e:
Is that why Druids were ignored when we said Druid AOE tanking was terrible? Blizzard said it was fine. You were wrong. Hence the new change (which still isn't enough).
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Several players have said that Druid AoE tanking was "fine". Their definition of fine may have simply differed from yours.
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Q u o t e:
Dismissing the player base (who are a lot more knee-deep into the game) is not a good idea, especially when the players have a better track record about being correct than the developers.
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The player base hardly has a good track record for being correct. For example, after almost every nerf the player base said that was the death of the class or spec that was nerfed. And after almost every nerf, they were wrong.

Q u o t e:
you realize that probably only temporary?

if the great experiment with removing druid tank gear is considered acceptable, Holy Pally's are next...We'll be wearing cloth with a deep holy talent called "holy armor" that increases our armor by 300% or some crap...

I appreciate what Blizzard's goal was when they started but they WENT TO FAR.

reducing different types of gear by having classes with same ROLE share gear = GOOD

reducing different types of gear by having classes with different ROLES share gear = BAD

A large part of MMOs is acquiring items when that's no longer FUN you've made a mistake

Where would you have stopped? That’s a serious question, not a troll.

Q u o t e:
Were they wrong or did they just stop complaining? How do you determine the right or wrong of a nerf?

A million dollar question, that.

Q u o t e:
GC, while this is true.... a bit more attention, or maybe even just a bit more discussion on how you all see ferals evolving would be nice.

Right now seeing:

Ferals don't like spamming swipe as their only aoe tanking tool, so you make swipe stronger. Sure it might get the job done, but it doesn't address all the problems swipe has.

Ideas like scaling thorns, aoe around the bear due to thorns, things like that would be interesting to hear you and the other devs thoughts on. With block mechanics and aoe mechanics from the other tanks being so strong, and in some cases very impressively thought out, it makes just spamming swipe seem like you didn't put alot of thought into it.

You're not making a terribly fair comparison here. Warriors can block etc., true, but Ferals have Barkskin, Survival Instinct, Demo Roar and Enraged Regen as defensive abilities. You have Swipe and Berserk (and the nice Maul glyph) for area threat generation (and I still see bears pulling with Hurricane too).

I do think it is a fair concern that you can spam nothing but Swipe, but to fix that for other tanks we put a cooldown on their AE ability to force them to hit something else. I'm not sure we want to do that for druids.

While you may think of yourself primarily as a bear, we still think of you as a druid. Druids have a lot of abilities. I have played a bear (a lot) and I know it's already hard to fit all of your buttons on the default Blizzard action bars, even just considering the bear ones. Now I'm not going to suggest you Innervate or use Rebirth or Regrowth while tanking, but at the same time, even bear MTs do sometimes use those abilities. They still count as abilities. When you pick a tanking druid, you are still a druid. We don't want any class to have 300 spells just because they can use them in very different scenarios. Make sense?

Q u o t e:
Other things to discuss, while most of us understand why you changed how armor works, that doesn't address the fact that the same items you found to be too powerful due to their armor, are STILL the only items ferals want. The trinkets might have changed, but it went from 1 best in slot item, to another best in slot that EVERY feral will gear for.

Seeing Offering change to that Darkmoon Card for 90agi doesn't really make ferals go "ooooo now I have options" it just means we are grinding for a different ONE item.

There will probably always be a best in slot item. The difference is that Offering was insanely better than the alternatives, to the point at which you either sucked without it or were OP with it. Greatness is a nice trinket, but can you do your job without it? Absolutely. We're talking about degree of best in slot here.

Q u o t e:
Find a way to give us CHOICES in our gear, not just less effective best in slots.

I agree with that overall, and it is something we're working on. By the same token however it is very easy to take your argument and say "There will always be a best in slot item. I will always want that item. Therefore choice is always an illusion."

Q u o t e:
Ifs its too tough to do given you only have HP,Armor, Dodge to work with, maybe its time to talk about other ways to scale ferals.

We are. It probably won't be defense, block or parry though.

Q u o t e:
If went to my doctor and complained about the pain in my chest and arm and told him I needed an antacid, he would be negligent to grant my request and not do any further tests. He would be equally negligent to ignore my problems because my solution was wrong. More often than not clients identify real problems that need to be fixed, but just as often their solutions are not practical. Dismissing the problem because you don't agree with the solution is idiotic.

I don’t actually think that is a very strong analogy. It is in both you and your doctor’s best interest to get you well (to a point). A better analogy would be arguing to your government that your taxes should be lower, or more often, that everyone else’s taxes should be high, but yours should be low. The government risks making things worse for everyone if they listen to you or risks making things worse for themselves if they “buff” everyone.

I agree that players definitely hit the nail on the head sometimes and can be totally objective. But sometimes they also are very close to a problem and only stand to personally benefit if we make a change. Though it pains me to admit it, I’m sure there are players on the forums right now who know they are OP but keep duplicitously arguing for buffs anyway because it’s fun to be even more OP. :(