BFA Sub Rogue Class Design

#1 - May 7, 2018, 2:28 a.m.
Blizzard Post
Just giving on some feedback on what i'm excited for and what I feel might be clunky or what I believe could feel more impactful.

General Changes:
--- Prey on the weak being a debuff feels much smoother. Very good change makes dealing with orcs or relentless much less frustrating, also adds decision making instead of being a spam stunbot.

--- Was happy to see Marked for Death on Vigor/Stratagem tier and DFA stay on the 100 tier, but now it's missing and the 100 tier is 2 blank talents. Really miss being able to have access to marked for death and Death from above at the same time. Being able to time DFA to chase a blink/port is fun and exciting.
***DFA honor talent now.

--- Feint being 15 second cooldown seems worrisome if not gaining defense elsewhere since we don't have the self peels / slipperiness we had in past.
-If the issue with feint is PvE related untalented version could have longer CD and could remove aoe reduction from talented version.
-If the issue is spam related make its CD 6-10 seconds instead of 15 and or lower its duration to 4 seconds. This adds counter-play by being able to bait feint then bursting as it ends, but is still on cooldown.

--- Would be nice to see more abilities designed to interact with one another like: gouge->berserker rage->shiv->fear, Bladestorm -> Disarm, DK unholy frenzy to break CC -> shiv. Hibernate wars between ferals etc.

--- No way to tell how I feel about 2 minute cloak since can't play 120 htalent number tuned arenas yet, but as long as it happens to other classes as well longer defensive CD's is good for the game to break the scripted flowchart of defensive cd rotations and promote swaps more.

GCD Changes:
--- I'm thankful shadow dance isn't on it since there are often split decision utility plays with sap that wouldn't be possible if it was.

--- I don't mind the GCD changes even though I feel they are a bandaid fix for adding counter-play to scripted goes. I think the bigger issue is the homogenization of 1 Minute Defensive Cooldowns and overly simplistic rotations than just delaying damage after a CD.
*I.E needing slice and dice / rupture up is a much bigger delay without the loss of smoothness than the current plan band-aid delaying burst through GCD.

--- Using symbols of death and shadow blades before a dance feels really clunky investing 2 globals and neither of symbols or shadow blades scream iconic/exciting. Could maybe just combine both of them into 1 major offensive CD.
***symbols / cold blood are once again off GCD now.

Utility vs class fantasy:
--- The whole Assassination =poison, sub = shadow fantasy, outlaw/combat = more toe to toe fantasy really makes all 3 specs feel incomplete and not well rounded. There should be a fine line between strengths and weaknesses, but most other classes don't have this missing backbone ultimatum.
*Imagine how bad it would feel if:
-only affliction had curses/dots
-only demo had a pet
-destro was revamped around a RNG "Burn the offering" roulette wheel of blessings to rip off roll the bones.
or
-only Survival had traps/flare
-only BM pet abilities like roar of sacrifice.
-only Marksman had other situational CC's like binding shot/wyvern.

It would just feel clunky or wrong and that is how it feels as a rogue looking back to wrath/cata/mop/even wod then playing legion/bfa with:
-only outlaw has gouge / disarm (dismantle if it's still an honor talent), tricks of the trade damage boost for that niche of control+support class.
-only assassination has garrote silence / poisons (mortal strike is very important for PvP)
-only Sub having smoke bomb in legion (all 3 specs have as honor talent in bfa)

If you are set in stone with this class fantasy then at least spread the CC across all 3 specs at the cost of damage/mobility if need be and give Outlaw/Sub mortal strike effects tied elsewhere in the rotation. For, Sub could have the old talented waylay slow on Backstab / Shadowstrike and have Nightblade be our mortal strike effect.

Utility:
--- Decision making with disarm, garrote, gouge, shiv, stuns, tricks of the trade damage buff on teammates was the backbone of the class.
--- The multiple dance/multiple shadowstep model doesn't feel nearly as impactful as the old 1 shadowstep, 1minute burst dance, prep model. Since it's too available, not as much damage, less utility without garrote.
--- If prep is too strong defensively or you feel like rogues evasion offensively because they want to prep, you could instead just add a second charge to vanish somehow instead of the current legion theifs bargain 45sec vanish.
--- If sub having gouge was too oppressive when used as pseudo interrupt then raising the cooldown / energy costs are better solutions than pruning and removing decision making/options.
--- If garrote went baseline stealth only for sub/outlaw with a CD. Assa could maintain its out of stealth/no cd from stealth niche.
Forum Avatar
Game Designer
#6 - May 7, 2018, 11:19 p.m.
Blizzard Post
05/06/2018 07:28 PMPosted by Nahj
--- Using symbols of death and shadow blades before a dance feels really clunky investing 2 globals and neither of symbols or shadow blades scream iconic/exciting. Could maybe just combine both of them into 1 major offensive CD.
We took Symbols of Death off the GCD. It's a button designed to very often be used during Shadow Dance's short window, and adding it to the GCD removed that interaction almost entirely.

05/06/2018 07:28 PMPosted by Nahj
Utility vs class fantasy:
--- The whole Assassination =poison, sub = shadow fantasy, outlaw/combat = more toe to toe fantasy really makes all 3 specs feel incomplete and not well rounded. There should be a fine line between strengths and weaknesses, but most other classes don't have this missing backbone ultimatum.
It's all about having balance between fantasy and function. Class fantasy is important, and specs and classes having more distinct fantasies is in general a positive thing. That said, that shouldn't necessarily mean removing (without replacing) desired, necessary, and appropriate functionality from a spec for the sake of fantasy uniqueness. For example, early Legion class design toed the line on this a bit more, and tried things like only giving Hunter traps to one spec, and that change was later reverted.

To your point, Subtlety's snare capabilities becoming more convoluted in Legion with Crippling Poison going to Assassination-only wasn't exactly the functional intention of that change, but it was a byproduct. A fair complaint is that Subtlety's only baseline snare comes from a finishing move and the spec has no AOE snare.

05/06/2018 07:28 PMPosted by Nahj
For, Sub could have the old talented waylay slow on Backstab / Shadowstrike and have Nightblade be our mortal strike effect.
Largely due to continued good feedback like this post, we re-opened the discussion of Subtlety's snare kit, which we haven't been happy with either. We're going to make the following changes:
  • Nightblade no longer has the mechanic of autoattacking a target with Nightblade applies a snare
  • Nightblade's damage over time instead now has a healing taken reduction component
  • A new spec passive gives Backstab/Shadowstrike an 8 sec snare
  • New talent (replacing Strike from the Shadows): Shuriken storm applies 8 sec snare to all targets

Overall, thanks for the great feedback.