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Regional FlagDo u get insulted for playin ur spec?Source
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Kettilbjorn
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#1 - 2017/02/13 09:18:00 PM
It seems this happens alot to me and to other ferals I talk to in Legion.

Typical kind of scenarios, just from the last week ...
Join mythic - show up at stone ...
* "Oh, lol, ur feral?!?" "yep" "gross .... <kick>."
* "What?!? Why u feral man?" "Have been since vanilla" "Dude, boomkin is way better" ..... Lead mythic run in dps ... "good job, dude, way better than I thought ...... but u'd still do better as boomie. :b "

This seems to happen a couple times every week. Sigh. There must be some other specs that also have a negative stigma. Anyone?

It really sucks that Blizzard left feral terrible for aoe, and weak overall, and hence bad for mythics for so long. It both makes for regular unpleasant interactions based entirely on preconceived notions rather than performance. It also makes it really hard to get into groups for challenging content as a feral.

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Community Manager
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#26 - 2017/02/13 09:58:00 PM
I mean sure, but I find it's best to distance yourself from those folks if you have issue with it.

You're a part of this community, too. You have you say in these things as much as they do. Show them what you're worth and make them talk. :)

If it's a recurring problem, find a casual group of friends or guild to play with. That will help your experience a ton.

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#66 - 2017/02/13 10:36:00 PM
02/13/2017 02:22 PMPosted by Kettilbjorn
02/13/2017 01:58 PMPosted by Ornyx
I mean sure, but I find it's best to distance yourself from those folks if you have issue with it.

You're a part of this community, too. You have you say in these things as much as they do. Show them what you're worth and make them talk. :)

If it's a recurring problem, find a casual group of friends or guild to play with. That will help your experience a ton.


I expect this kind of response form a small minority of ignorant players but not from a blue.

The point is that its not about what you can do ... its about spec's being poor enough for long enough that a reputation precludes opportunities for performance ... and just playing with good friends isn't a solution and you should know it. SO 90% of the community can just queue up for content with strangers, but because your spec sucks you can only play with close friends?

For a lark I just checked the 90th % for my ilvl for normal nighthold - feral is dead last.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#dataset=90&difficulty=3&sample=7&bracket=17

I can do what I can as an individual to competently play, and flask, and food buff, and pot, but its a small ripple in the ocean when Bliz doesn't bother to properly balance things.
I understand what you're trying to say... but then the top and bottom of the log you are showing me are ~10 points apart. That seems rather normal, and not much of a swing to really try to claim that those players deserve to be sidelined or kicked (especially when talking about the 90th percentile).

I get that balance will always be a concern (and we're still working on it!), and, yes, there will always be a class in "last", but a lot of the response to these things are community constructions around players treating other players as if nothing but DPS meters and "flavor of the month" specs matter. It's our job as members of the community to correct that kind of attitude when we see it, as it seems we generally agree it's not constructive.

If OP finds a group of people who don't focus on the minutia (ie., non-hardcore/elite/etc players), he'll have an easier time avoiding "insults" over his spec choice, and that's what he seems to want.

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#71 - 2017/02/13 10:41:00 PM
02/13/2017 02:38 PMPosted by Zyký
02/13/2017 01:58 PMPosted by Ornyx
I mean sure, but I find it's best to distance yourself from those folks if you have issue with it.

You're a part of this community, too. You have you say in these things as much as they do. Show them what you're worth and make them talk. :)

If it's a recurring problem, find a casual group of friends or guild to play with. That will help your experience a ton.


Is your argument to underpreforming specs seriously "join a casual guild" since no top guild would want one? lol
Nope! My argument is that the community has poorly built, ingrained expectations based on perceptions of class balance that should be reformed.

Joining a casual guild is an easy one-off solution, I guess. The bigger solution is us continuing work on class balance while engaging in conversations like these.

Edit: For clarification, it's fine for high expectations to exist for harder content, just as it is for expectations to exist that content should be able to be cleared with any spec/class in tow. I just disagree that the scrutiny placed on folks who aim to be more casual or just going about their day is well-placed.

02/13/2017 02:39 PMPosted by Bayon
I was kicked out of a normal dungeon for being an elemental shaman.

A NORMAL DUNGEON!
That's not okay. Sorry that happened. :/

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#80 - 2017/02/13 10:50:00 PM
<span class="truncated">...</span>Nope! My argument is that the community has poorly built, ingrained expectations based on perceptions of class balance that should be reformed.

Joining a casual guild is an easy one-off solution, I guess. The bigger solution is us continuing work on class balance while engaging in conversations like these.


I'm not trying to hardball or anything, but the truth is there's zero reason to bring a feral druid or an unholy dk right now.

Sure people can have fun and play the spec they want, but the reality is when unholy is literally behind frost by 150k, no one in their right mind would recruit an unholy dk when frost is just preforming so much better.

As for Feral, the game has 4 classes, 7 specs that all wear leather. Feral Druid brings nothing extra to the table. Windwalker brings raid wide move speed aura. Rogues and Demon Hunters bring huge damage, Boomkins bring versatility of being a strong cleave ranged with decent single target. Feral has no single target and low AoE and no utility worth mentioning.
Like I said, and it was a bit vague there, but I agree insofar that balance isn't necessarily where it needs to be - and again, because these things run off numbers, there /will/ always be a "bottom" of the barrel. In that note, if you are running an operation based off that alone, then sure - but the vast, vast majority of our playerbase would never be in a situation where that is warranted, and is instead a community machination.

I personally always thought the better solution was diversification, with classes bringing more than just DPS to the table, and their DPS adjusted because of that. But I'm not a class designer. :P

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#87 - 2017/02/13 10:54:00 PM
02/13/2017 02:53 PMPosted by Rothulian
What is Unholys diversification? Nobody cares about diversification when front does 100k+ more. Are you saying that because there "has" to be a bottom it's ok for unholy to be 100k+ behind?

That's ludicrous. I don't mind so much where unholy is but 100k is completely unacceptable.
Never said that, at all. I said multiple times balance isn't necessarily 100% where it should be.

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#100 - 2017/02/13 11:06:00 PM
02/13/2017 03:04 PMPosted by Rothulian
And no offense but the "balance is not where it needs to be" line is at least 8 years old. We need results. Just buff the bottom specs.
I appreciate your concerns. But asking for buffs here is a bit off-topic, and we've deleted multiple of your posts already. This thread was discussing the implications of feeling "insulted" for playing your spec, and is not a place for individuals to ask for buffs.

If you want to discuss your class, feel free to head to the Death Knight forum or the Class Development forum. Any further posts along these lines will result in a vacation.

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#101 - 2017/02/13 11:08:00 PM
...Like I said, and it was a bit vague there, but I agree insofar that balance isn't necessarily where it needs to be - and again, because these things run off numbers, there /will/ always be a "bottom" of the barrel. In that note, if you are running an operation based off that alone, then sure - but the vast, vast majority of our playerbase would never be in a situation where that is warranted, and is instead a community machination.

I personally always thought the better solution was diversification, with classes bringing more than just DPS to the table, and their DPS adjusted because of that. But I'm not a class designer. :P


I just honestly just don't understand, you agree, but it feels like nothing gets done. Unholy has been in this position since 7.1.5 PTR. Its now 5 weeks(I think that's right) into Nighthold and we haven't even seen some kind of touch up to just bring them into perspective. Instead it just feels like a huge kick in the nuts when we get a blue post from a game director who says "we're planning on doing this in 7.2!" 7.2 is too late for a lot of people.
We've gotten that across the table, and the team is aware of concerns. The best place for a discussion leading into specifics of balance will be the Class Development forum, not here. :)

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#128 - 2017/02/13 11:39:00 PM
02/13/2017 03:30 PMPosted by Auralya
02/13/2017 01:58 PMPosted by Ornyx
I mean sure, but I find it's best to distance yourself from those folks if you have issue with it.

You're a part of this community, too. You have you say in these things as much as they do. Show them what you're worth and make them talk. :)

If it's a recurring problem, find a casual group of friends or guild to play with. That will help your experience a ton.


I logged in to reply to your idiotic comment.

The problem is, your M.I.T. dropout Diablo 3 developers have created what is known as a crappy spec. Now pugging in this game is what WoW has become, telling someone to ignore pug groups, because 90% of them will do this, is terrible advice.

How about you go to the devs, slap them, and come back to post how things are going then.
Insulting us is getting you real far, eh? Enjoy your vacation. o/

02/13/2017 03:33 PMPosted by Sativ
<span class="truncated">...</span>I appreciate your concerns. But asking for buffs here is a bit off-topic, and we've deleted multiple of your posts already.

Being insulted for playing your spec means there is a stigma across the community that your spec sucks.

02/13/2017 03:06 PMPosted by Ornyx
This thread was discussing the implications of feeling "insulted" for playing your spec, and is not a place for individuals to ask for buffs.

Which plays DIRECTLY into the problem you're trying to pin point here.

Might I suggest actively providing intelligent response to our community instead of the jargen you spew at us now.

Thank you.
What "intelligent response" do you want? I'm not sure shooting to insult my intelligence here (for no reason, I might add), is really going to help this conversation or whatever your point may be.

02/13/2017 03:38 PMPosted by Dovathuil
Like . . . you guys can't change human nature. Some of your responses Ornyx are asking for the entire community to up and change their behavior in a pretty significant way.

It's one thing to work towards less toxic behavior in terms of aggression/name calling and such, but expecting people to fundamentally change ingrained human behavior is kind of a bit much don't you think?

Also, just to point out, 10% difference between top and bottom isn't bad per se, but when you're measuring dps by the hundreds of thousands that 10% is pretty alarming when you see it in game.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but you (blizzard) are the ones who design the content. If you eliminated any and all dps checks, then you would see the playerbase soften their attitudes. You guys are the ones putting stuff like Krosus, Tichondrius, enrage timers, immediate threat adds, etc in the game. As long as these exist, people will default to "only top performing specs are good" mentality.
I don't really think that's true. The behavior here is very much learned, and didn't exist before folks were staring at damage meters and 'gear score' to try to gain leverage over others. It's a bit much to ask that we divulge from that entire path, as its very much a part of WoW these days, but I don't think its much to understand that low DPS may not be the players fault, and that they don't necessarily deserve the blame or treatment they may get.

But yes, we (Blizzard) as designers also have an obligation and a hand in on the bargain here. Again, feedback is being sent along relative to this. Most of the watched discussion on balance topics now it happening on the Class Development forum so I suggest chiming in there if you get a chance.

---

Let's keep this on topic, and avoiding insulting each other. Thanks.

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#135 - 2017/02/13 11:49:00 PM
02/13/2017 03:45 PMPosted by Huvud
I'm not trying to insult you, Ornyx, but you are a community-focused CM. NOT a dev or anyone involved in class balance. You are clearly in over your head. Maybe this subject shouldn't have been something you decided to delve into, because frankly you're giving Blizz a really bad look with class balance when your response to DPS rankings is "last place isn't THAT bad". Let the blues with more experience with hardcore raiding, top end guilds, and the actual context of DPS rankings and numbers handle these subjects.
I think you could say the same to any number of players who are also not class designers, then - insofar that without accurate information they shouldn't be giving feedback on the topic. It's not really a good argument to say that a person can or can't weigh in on any particular topic, you see - especially when we are all players here. I never said I understood everything about class balance, only shared some personal thoughts on the topic.

My notes on the logs also clearly stated that it's something we are working on.

Thanks for your feedback!

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#350 - 2017/02/14 09:18:00 PM
<span class="truncated">...</span>Nope! My argument is that the community has poorly built, ingrained expectations based on perceptions of class balance that should be reformed.

Joining a casual guild is an easy one-off solution, I guess. The bigger solution is us continuing work on class balance while engaging in conversations like these.

Edit: For clarification, it's fine for high expectations to exist for harder content, just as it is for expectations to exist that content should be able to be cleared with any spec/class in tow. I just disagree that the scrutiny placed on folks who aim to be more casual or just going about their day is well-placed.

<span class="truncated">...</span>That's not okay. Sorry that happened. :/


wow. seriously? You are just as disconnected from the player base with your comments as the devs are. Shame on you for those insulting remarks. maybe the problem is some of blizzards staff should go join a casual gaming outfit that has clients that accept such shoddy workmanship.
To address what I think is your point: believe it or not, balance is generally in a good place right now, as I said earlier in this thread. There will always be a class in the bottom when it comes to numbers, but, again, this is a community perception issue more than anything - especially when looking at the vast majority of specs being super close to each other on (to take it into account) log rankings at various percentiles. And just to state it again: there are a couple of outlying specs that vary fight-to-fight that we are watching and looking into.

You didn't really make a good comment here that lends itself to any kind of discussion. If you'd like to contribute to a constructive conversation, please do it.

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#355 - 2017/02/14 09:40:00 PM
02/14/2017 01:36 PMPosted by Gigabear
02/14/2017 01:18 PMPosted by Ornyx
To address what I think is your point: believe it or not, balance is generally in a good place right now, as I said earlier in this thread. There will always be a class in the bottom when it comes to numbers, but, again, this is a community perception issue more than anything - especially when looking at the vast majority of specs being super close to each other on (to take it into account) log rankings at various percentiles.


I think we have a different idea of what constitutes "a good place" and "super close." The spread is a minimum of ten percent. It's not terrible, but still enough for someone to look at two applicants for a group and legitimately say that anyone in the top tier of that spread is getting an invite long before anyone whose spec is at the bottom.

You call this a community construct, but really players are just taking what is given to them and making choices for how best to succeed at content. This isn't behavior to be corrected, it's behavior to be made as unnecessary as possible through a continuing process of tightening the dps spread between specs.
I will say, to the last point, DPS has been tightening over the course of the expansion so far.

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#371 - 2017/02/14 10:16:00 PM
To address what I think is your point: believe it or not, balance is generally in a good place right now, as I said earlier in this thread. There will always be a class in the bottom when it comes to numbers, but, again, this is a community perception issue more than anything - especially when looking at the vast majority of specs being super close to each other on (to take it into account) log rankings at various percentiles. And just to state it again: there are a couple of outlying specs that vary fight-to-fight that we are watching and looking into.

You didn't really make a good comment here that lends itself to any kind of discussion. If you'd like to contribute to a constructive conversation, please do it.


Telling people to go casual or to just ignore what other people think when it is a fact that ferals and uh dks are bad are also very misleading and not constructive comments to help bring awareness to specs that need help. Don't say "You have you say in these things as much as they do. Show them what you're worth and make them talk." then proceed with "there's zero reason to bring a feral druid or an unholy dk right now". Those are two conflicting comments.

How is someone suppose to show their worth when it is a fact that there is zero reason to bring a feral druid or UH DK? Please be consistent and not bring further confusion.

And don't delete the comments when what I am saying is truth :). Thanks.
I never said that. In fact I've mentioned 0 specs specifically here. Let's get our 'facts' straight here.

I said there are a couple of outlying specs that may be under-performing, and that we've got our eyes on them. Please don't twist my words to fit what you want to hear.

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#383 - 2017/02/14 10:39:00 PM
02/14/2017 02:35 PMPosted by Dehaka
02/14/2017 02:16 PMPosted by Ornyx
I never said that. In fact I've mentioned 0 specs specifically here. Let's get our 'facts' straight here.

I said there are a couple of outlying specs that may be under-performing, and that we've got our eyes on them. Please don't twist my words to fit what you want to hear.


Merely repeating what has been said. That's all. Don't be misleading people thinking that you can change the communities perspective when it is a fact that ferals and UH DKs are bad or offer advice like "stay away from those people" or "go casual" because that severely limits players options just because their spec is bad.

If a spec is underperforming, they shouldn't have to feel like they're getting kicked out of a group or won't be able to do certain content just because it's a FACT that the spec cannot perform on a general level. That's not the players fault. That's fault due to inadequate balancing and foresight on the classes' capabilities and ignorance of FREQUENT FEEDBACK.

Players shouldn't feel like their only options are to "stay away from players" or "go casual". They should have the freedom to do whatever content they want with whatever spec they want in reason. If the community is constantly denying Ferals and UH DKs, that's not the players fault, that's on YOU.
The problem here is your phrase "perform on a general level", and it all falls apart when considering that. As you can see by the various opinions in this thread, that is disagreed upon - some think "generally" all specs are able to perform, while others think that "generally" two or three specs will never be able to hold water.

Thanks for your feedback otherwise.