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Regional FlagOfficial request for the removal of RNG gearSource
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Chocobananas
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#1 - 2015/07/01 09:21:00 AM
I cannot believe the amount of backlash I have seen on this that has been completely disregarded by blizzard. Devs have repeatedly ignored us and I'm hoping if we can consolidate our complaints on the system maybe they will revert it the way the reverted the 10% nerf last season. I don't have much hope for anything at this point after reading Holinka's interviews but I figured I'd give it one last shot. Personally I play this game for the enjoyment of arenas / the competitive element. Gear disparities do nothing to enhance the competitive element of this game. I for one do not need to be on a treadmill of gear to keep playing arenas. Forcing us to do Ashran for a possiblity to get BiS gear is insane. The thought of playing for an entire season and doing Ashran every single week and still not getting full BiS is honestly quite disheartening. PvPers do not want to do Ashran but at the very least I think most of us would be willing to settle for a compromise of doing Ashran if the piece was atleast guaranteed or if you got a token that could be exchanged in order to avoid repeats. Anyone else that thinks RNG gearing for Best in Slot gear is awful please feel free to leave something below and list a couple reasons why.

Edit: hey guys it has come to my attention that petition posts that simply ask for votes are frowned upon and can be deleted. As a result I would like to clarify the purpose of this thread. I would like everyone who disagrees with the current system to voice their opinion and provide reasons as to why they do. I'm aware I already stated this in my original post but I just want to reinforce this point to avoid any unnecessary confusion with the forum mods. Big thanks to everyone that has spoken out there are some really great points that have been brought up so far. 600+ likes 20 pages, keep em comin boys!

Edit2: hey guys this thread has reached its limit so there has been a second one opened. Hopefully we can get this one extended to make this easier

Edit3: Hey guys this post has been reopened! Back to business!

Edit4: 1000+ upvotes in <48 hours. Acknowledge us Lore-senpai!!!

Edit5: Great to see a blue response even if it may not be 100% what we want to hear. They seem to be pretty on the fence about it (Lore didn't make any promises but he did say they are still looking into alternatives). We clearly need to make our voice even louder.

Edit6: The arguement that casual <1500 pug stompers want this new system has also been rendered invalid by the numerous self claimed casual players who have voiced their opinion. Please do not use benefiting casuals as a justification for this abysmal system.

Edit7: Being able to buy lockboxes is a lot better than just sitting there hoping every week. While I would still prefer to be able to buy the actual pieces this atleast ensures we won't end the season without Best in Slot (for the most part). This doesn't mean I am complacent by any means, please keep posting and hopefully they will go all the way with this and let us buy it off the vendor. Thanks for keeping up with this Lore and an even bigger thanks to everyone that has continued to post in this and spread awareness on the issue. Oh yeah 2000+ likes!

Edit8: We did it guys. Thanks for contributing everyone and good luck rest of the season.

Edit9: Turns out Blizzard completely forgot about our 130 pages of feedback of how horrible RNG gear is in PvP and put it right back in barely one year later (imagine that, developers overlooking the opinions of PvPers...) Let's remind them. Again.

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Community Manager
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#686 - 2015/07/03 12:42:00 AM
Okay, so, lots to cover here, and I don’t have answers to every concern, but I’ll try to hit what I can.

Let me start by saying that we are absolutely not ignoring or disregarding your feedback. I know that we’ve said that a lot, and I know that it’s a hard line to believe when you’re not seeing an immediate reaction or response to it. Truth is, we completely understand and even agree with a lot of the feedback we get, we just can’t always immediately act on it. Sometimes changes can’t be hotfixed and have to wait for a patch. Sometimes the right way to fix an issue has a lot of side effects that also need to be addressed, which makes it better suited for an expansion.

Of course, sometimes we just disagree. It’s important, I think, to draw a distinction between “disagreed” and “disregarded.” Every day, we have debates and discussions internally that are based on feedback we’ve received. Sometimes we agree with that feedback, and sometimes we don’t, but we always consider and discuss it.

Which brings me to the titular argument in this thread: that randomness in PvP gearing is inherently bad and should be removed entirely. We’ve talked about it a lot. It’s been an almost daily topic of conversation here for months. We’ve argued back and forth, we’ve looked for every angle and perspective we can find, we’ve argued some more, and yes, we’ve experienced it ourselves in our own playtime. We disagree. Here’s why:

There are two main rewards for participating in rated PvP. One of those is, obviously, rating. The higher your rating, the better you rank on the ladder, and the better your cosmetic rewards (titles, achievements, etc.) will be at the end of the season. For a lot of players, that’s the “real” game, and gearing is just sort of this thing that you have to do for a while first. That’s a completely valid way to enjoy the game.

The other reward is the gear you earn via Conquest points. For many players, PvP is about killing other players, so you can get better loot, so you can kill other players harder. They don’t particularly care about being the very best, they just want to have a fun time stomping on people. For this type of player, being fully geared is actually where the game ends. Once they can’t possibly stomp any harder, the game starts to lose its appeal. This is also a completely valid way to enjoy the game.

Our challenge, then, is in finding a way to satisfy both types of player as much as possible, despite the fact that their opinions on what makes the game fun are often completely at odds with each other. So, our goal with gearing in Warlords was to let people get enough gear to start pushing for rating relatively quickly, while still making sure there was something left to earn once you’re there.

That’s how we landed on the current system. A player wearing a full set of Conquest gear they bought from a vendor is completely capable of earning Gladiator. It might not have your completely optimal stat distribution, but the difference is minor at most. Put another way, if you’re losing rating, it’s not because you have Multistrike instead of Versatility on your bracers. Still, if you’re the sort of player who’s PvPing for the gear, it gives you something of at least some small value to continue to earn.

So, why RNG and not, say, making Versatility gear purchasable after 27k? Simply put, we don’t think that would actually feel any better for either type of player. It would make the gear grind longer for players who just want to push rating (as you wouldn’t have been able to earn any of it until you were fully geared), and the type of player who just wants to be able to smash people would lose out on the chance to get a little bit ahead of everyone else earlier on.

All that being said, we agree that it’s not ideal for the only methods of earning that gear to be Ashran or Rated BGs. I can’t make any promises, but we’re exploring some options to make it available through other forms of PvP. Just keep in mind that we do want there to be some extra incentive to participate in RBGs and Ashran.

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Community Manager
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#746 - 2015/07/03 01:14:00 AM
07/02/2015 06:05 PMPosted by Spastic
One question that was not addressed is: why was past model of gearing changed from having the option to purchase gear (via reputation, etc) to one of pure RNG. That is the stick in the eye that is raging the community right now.

We got a ton of complaints about having to farm reputation in order to get the pieces, so we decided to try something different.

07/02/2015 06:07 PMPosted by Nyz
You say they're both valid ways to enjoy the game but you only cater to the second group, why?

To be frank, if that were true, the Conquest vendor would probably not exist. He's there because we want to make sure the players who want to push rating are able to do so without relying on RNG.

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Community Manager
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#760 - 2015/07/03 01:20:00 AM
Is it just a coincidence that all the posts that enjoy the current system are <1500 rated in arenas.... like really?

Not at all. In fact, that just means the system is doing exactly what it's supposed to do, and providing something of value to players who don't care what their rating is.

07/02/2015 06:16 PMPosted by Desai
How do you feel about a method along these lines:

Combine the two systems so that it is purchasable from the vendor IN ADDITION to being RNG available through ashran and RBGs. This way there is no issue of being in week 30 and not having full BiS.

Totally get that concern. It's important to note that we do have bad luck prevention in place on the boxes, which makes it almost impossible for someone earning both boxes (RBG and Ashran) every week to never get those pieces. We may be able to improve those chances even further, though -- we'll talk about it.

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Community Manager
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#766 - 2015/07/03 01:23:00 AM
07/02/2015 06:03 PMPosted by Felines
He's kind of ignoring the fact that some classes will need all the versatility to stay relevant. Ret paladins for example are going to be ignored simply because without that mitigation, they explode if anyone looks at them the wrong way. Any of the squishier classes/specs will feel it too. With the rock paper scissors format of arena comps decided on in WoD, pvp is just as much a min/max game as high end pve. With that in mind, BiS really means a lot to those benefitting/staying afloat from versatility; an RNG-based BiS pvp gear system inadvertently gimps those classes.

If that's the case, that's the sort of thing we can fix by tweaking class mechanics to provide the squishier classes/specs with some more survivability. I think it's a bit early in the season yet to definitively state whether it's needed or not.

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Community Manager
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#1501 - 2015/07/07 07:39:00 PM
07/02/2015 05:42 PMPosted by Lore
All that being said, we agree that it’s not ideal for the only methods of earning that gear to be Ashran or Rated BGs. I can’t make any promises, but we’re exploring some options to make it available through other forms of PvP. Just keep in mind that we do want there to be some extra incentive to participate in RBGs and Ashran.

To follow up on this, we're planning to allow the Champion's Strongbox to be purchased from Conquest vendors for 1500 Conquest Points once a player has earned the Wild Conquest (27k) achievement. It will be added to the vendors in an upcoming hotfix.

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Community Manager
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#1575 - 2015/07/07 09:38:00 PM
07/07/2015 12:49 PMPosted by Thano
Even with Strongboxes being purchasable, it still includes RNG which is what people are opposed to. Are you even listening to us??

Believe me, I completely understand how frustrating it is to get the "wrong" item. I've gotten two pairs of Vers/Mastery pants from Ashran. Would I have liked to get something else this week? Absolutely. But I also know that, especially this early on, being 1 item behind (at worst) someone else isn't going to have much of an effect on my standings at the end of the season.

Ultimately, we'd love to find a system that brings all the benefits of RNG gearing (which I talked about earlier in the thread) but doesn't have the frustration of duplicate items or the fear of never getting your best pieces. Buying pieces directly for Conquest points is not that system. We'll continue to look into other options, though.