Blue Tracker

We might be nerfed....

#0 - Dec. 10, 2006, 10:24 a.m.

Blizzard Post

but not any more than we realize.

Druids can't downrank and still heal well (think HTrank4)
Neither can Paladins
Neither can Shamans
Neither can Priests
Hunters now have only 1AP per Agi
New Resilience property might prove to be a Rogues worst nightmare
ALL CC effects last a max of 12 secs!!!! (you WotF or trinket out of fear, the next wears off faster)

I really think we just aren't used to being beaten in 1v1 PVP. I know it sucks, but it could really be worse. Sure, I get my butt handed to me sometimes(albeit it might even hurt a little more), but then again, there are times where I really REALLY dish out the pain. I remember being able to DOMINATE just about anything (I have fair gear, mostly BWL and some higher PVP gear). I would just charge in, kill first, cannibilize second, then ask questions later.

Now, I just learn to pick my fights. I actually THINK about whether it is a good idea to charge and fight, or whether I might actually have to fight WITH the people I pug with (my guild doesnt do much PVP). [sarcasm] I mean, what does teamwork mean, anyway? [/sarcasm]

But isn't that the way this game works? Win some, lose some?

If you dont think so, maybe you should re-think your thought process. Because how we used to do things has obviously changed. We can no longer just crash against an enemy and are just about promised an HK. Now we have to think and stuff.

What's that old saying? Some evolution guy? Adapt or Die?

Do you want to dominate everything? I will tell you how I do it!!!!!

.................make a friend to pvp with. And stick with each other.
Find a healer that looks like he likes to heal, and never leave his sight. A good healer loves a killer tank. He knows he is mush if someone gets a hold of him. He can't take the damage, or deal it out. So why not let him do what he does best and do what you do best?? Make that healer feel like he has a personal bodyguard :) Never stray to far and guard him like a parent defends it's young. You kill, he heals, things die (and not either of you for once).

Sure, it isn't as glorious as going down in a hail of DoTs and stuns, but since when has anyone bought anything with GP(Glory Points)?

Priest sheild > Frostbolt.
Druid Rejuvination > Warlock Corrution.
Shaman/Pally 1.5 sec heal > Rogue DPS.

In Conclusion:
I have found a new way to fight. It is definetly a new spin on PVP, but killing things that attack my healer is way more rewarding than just mindlessly and needlessly dying. I look at my enemies gear a lot closer. I pay attention to his strategy. I watch my own strategy. And I feel a better player for it.
That means a lot to me.

#1 - Dec. 10, 2006, 10:34 a.m.

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You weren't nerfed, you just weren't buffed that much.

#2 - Dec. 10, 2006, 10:36 a.m.

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Q u o t e:
In Conclusion:
I have found a new way to fight. It is definetly a new spin on PVP, but killing things that attack my healer is way more rewarding than just mindlessly and needlessly dying. I look at my enemies gear a lot closer. I pay attention to his strategy. I watch my own strategy. And I feel a better player for it.
That means a lot to me.

That is a solid philosophy for a player. I do wish you the best. Cause if you aren't having fun for yourself, is it worth it?

#4 - Dec. 10, 2006, 10:38 a.m.

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Q u o t e:
What's that old saying? Some evolution guy? Adapt or Die?

Darwin?

I certainly hope no one comes in here with some brand of social darwinism. That's off-topic. ;)

#5 - Dec. 10, 2006, 10:39 a.m.

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Q u o t e:
oh and thanks for telling me that i cant pvp unless i have a healer strapped onto my sack

If you want to go it alone, why are you on a public message board? We're about connection and grouping here. ;)

#15 - Dec. 10, 2006, 10:48 a.m.

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Q u o t e:
It's only fair Tseric to want equality what others got!

Isn't it?

Not if you were overpowered in the first place, no. ;)

#16 - Dec. 10, 2006, 10:49 a.m.

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Q u o t e:
cuz it gives me a chubby

lol. I love you, too.

#17 - Dec. 10, 2006, 10:51 a.m.

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Q u o t e:

Because the healers we rely on have the option to go solo (and often choose it) and we do not. There's the beef.

Sustainability in a PvP environment is still a concern for them. Everyone dies in a BG at some point. They just have healing to extend survivablility in a different way.

#23 - Dec. 10, 2006, 10:52 a.m.

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Q u o t e:

Funny things these warrs eh? dead without groups, good thing us Loks can solo 3 people at once.

And if I was to predict that warlocks would be nerfed post-release, how would that make you feel?

#29 - Dec. 10, 2006, 10:54 a.m.

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Q u o t e:

if you truly love me

therell be 10k gold and warlords gear/weapons in my bank when i wake up tomarrow

and a fury 41 point talent that cost 10 less rage and last 30 seconds longer.....

True love? This ain't a romance novel, this is teh intarwebz.

a/s/l?

#51 - Dec. 10, 2006, 11:06 a.m.

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Q u o t e:

No. Not even close.

Let me put this simply: a shadow priest, feral druid, ret pally, or elem/enhance shaman is not dependent on me. I cannot spec out of dependence on them.

That's what is meant by, "going solo." They have a spec that performs very well without support. Most (all?) classes do, except for warriors. If you're going to create dependencies between classes, why aren't they mutual? In short, if I can't spec out of dependence on healers, why can they spec out of dependence on me?

EDIT: edited for grammar.

Hey, I don't disagree that some classes/specs can last in a 1v1 situation.

We're looking at the same point from different perspectives.

A warrior needs to be in the fight to be most effective. By being in the fight they take damage which they can not heal. Because of this, they are less sustainable in a solo situation. This is basic truth of the class. I see that you look at it as a dependency. But, if you are grouped yourself, you balance out those disadvantages.

A warrior train is a well-established PvP tactic. Yes, it involves having healers in your group. It still works as a dominant tactic. If you want to take issue with that, you are fighting against not only the game design, but an established form of play that grew out of that design. You are effectively saying that PUGs should be balanced against organized teams.

#53 - Dec. 10, 2006, 11:06 a.m.

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Q u o t e:
I suspect more than one person uses the Tseric account to post on these boards, and they have never before met.

You'd think that, but you'd be wrong. ;)

#61 - Dec. 10, 2006, 11:13 a.m.

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Q u o t e:
We either tank OR DPS. You cannot do both in a raid at the same time. If we bring no other utility (such as mages bring AOE, roots, snares, decurses, and warlocks bring debuffs, HP bonuses for MT), and we have to do it IN melee just like the Rogues, do you not feel that we should have close to the same DPS rewards as the Rogues for the risks we take?

No, because the rogues also are in melee range but have less armor. They are more susceptible to damage because you can gain plate magic resist gear.

P.S. and as I pointed out somewhere (maybe not this thread) a rogues alternate abilities of stunning have no effect on raid bosses in general.

#72 - Dec. 10, 2006, 11:18 a.m.

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Q u o t e:
Why not give warriors an ability like Berserker Rage, on a shared cooldown with Berserker Rage, that has the effect of Blessing of Freedom for a short period of time (roots/snare immunity for 5-10 seconds) such that the warrior must choose between fear immunity or snare/slow immunity? It would have only a negligible effect on warriors in group PvP, because we always have Blessing of Freedom (amirite?), in which case we'll always choose fear immunity, which would be exactly the same as now. It would also go a long way towards fixing warrior issues when we're playing without a priest or paladin tied to our backs.

And what about PvE? That kind of broad sweeping snare removal has impact in that aspect.

#78 - Dec. 10, 2006, 11:20 a.m.

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Q u o t e:

So you've met for coffee a few times?

Another possibility that fits those conditions is that I have a split personality.

O.o

#87 - Dec. 10, 2006, 11:24 a.m.

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Q u o t e:

Tseric, a rogue has the same hard tank points as a dps warrior in beserker stance. That's a fact. Plate is meaningless at the top level. The rogue has a much higher rate of avoidance and our hitpoint pools are the same. The beserker stance penalty, and the fact that our abilities cause us to take more damage, as well as their survivability tricks mean that they are actually -more durable- when dpsing a raid boss.

Ok, I will defer to your point. Thank you for it. :)

#91 - Dec. 10, 2006, 11:26 a.m.

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Q u o t e:
And if this is a case where you think warriors are fine, the changes are fine, and the warrior class is at all fun to play at the moment, this is one of those times.

Have I ever really said that, though?

#96 - Dec. 10, 2006, 11:27 a.m.

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Q u o t e:

One that says "Warriors got nerfed heavily" and another that says "You weren't nerfed, you just weren't buffed."?

Creepy! :O

Touche. I believe you win the thread, you clever devil. ;)

#113 - Dec. 10, 2006, 11:42 a.m.

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Q u o t e:

But I still want to talk about a snare/root immunity :(

Ok, but it might suck. :/

To give snare/root immunity to a melee class is to practically guarantee that they will destroy ranged classes in any capacity.

The devs have provided conditional breaks, like fear countering. It doesn't meet all situations, but it is a crowd control immunity/counter effect.

#115 - Dec. 10, 2006, 11:43 a.m.

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Q u o t e:

It's kind of related in the sense that I don't want to feel like the only way I can PvP is with a healer/dispeller strapped to my back. And that playing without one often feels like leaping off a cliff. And I guess healers/dispellers are kind of like huge kites. Ok, maybe not.

I'll give you an A for effort, though. :)

#127 - Dec. 10, 2006, 11:48 a.m.

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Q u o t e:
90% of the time I PvP with my pocket paladin, and I have a pretty fun time. The 10% of the time I have to try and get honor on my own? No thanks, totally miserable experience. I feel badly for the majority of warriors who don't have such a luxury.

It's just plain frustrating to work with other people in the alliance simply because most of them aren't up to the skill level I expect. I could tell stories, but we've all heard them.

Now, balancing warriors so that they have a fair chance in a 1v1 fight without overpowering them completely when they actually do get support may, I suppose, seem like a difficult challenge. The rage mechanic itself, while being instrumental in giving the warrior their unique gameplay feel, is a big reason why the discrepancy on effectiveness exists.

I think with a new direction from the plethora of +rage, +attack power talents we've seen so far, a good balance can be reached. So much about the warrior class is too generic for a game with the Warcraft name. (And for the love of good game design, no more "shout" buff type powers. Everquest II had so many and it just doesn't make any sense at all. Just terrible.)

Large scale PvP combat in WoW is a real weakness. Having played Shadowbane for as many years as I have, it's really disappointing to see how poor it is. Two groups standing 35 yards away from each other shooting arrows and casting spells isn't a good dynamic for PvP. (The fights between 2-5 people is definately WoW's strongest PvP-imo, just like the smaller instances are the more enjoyable PvE content-imo. Blizzard obviously recognizes this by now, but when I think of Warcraft I want something that is epic without also feeling so static and predictable.)

I like the cut of your jib. heh.

As for large scale PvP, you're right in the respect that it is not what we accentuate for this game. Particularly since technology shys away from having hundreds of folks in close quarters. :P

#133 - Dec. 10, 2006, 11:54 a.m.

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Q u o t e:

I disagree. Here's why. The two primary classes that use roots and snares to kite us (now that feral druids basically just bear tank us without healing), are mages and hunters.

Hunters have plenty of ways to reach range without using roots or snares. In fact, each of the three hunter talent trees has a way. Freezing trap also isn't a root or snare, and provides another escape method for them. I'm fairly certain that this wouldn't be too bad for them.

Mages would have some difficulty with a root/snare immunity on a warrior. Fire mages would still be able to Dragon's Breath or get a Blazing Speed proc. Then again, the current mage v. warrior matchup is so imbalanced that this couldn't possibly make it any worse.

Keep in mind that the ability I propose has a significant downside, has a very limited duration and a cooldown that limits its use, and only really affects two matchups. I know you don't like class comparisons, but I really think a comparison to Cloak of Shadows is the best way of illustrating that giving melee a means of escape from ranged control tools is not necessarily totally imbalanced.

In closing, even if you still maintain that the ability would not be acceptable, could you please pass along our desire for such an ability, or something similar, to the developers? Thanks for your time... especially at 3:30 in the morning O_O

In closing, sure. ;)