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Regional Flag2.4 ACTUAL constructive criticismSource
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Mordldred
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#0 - 2008/02/11 03:41:53 PM
1) k so 1% crit was lost on deep call of thunder. its a nerf, but makes sense that it was a bug, why else would it go 1-2-3-4-6? granted noones happy but if they fixed other things, people would be more apt to accept this change

2) 450 mana , 6 charges cast x2 900 mana 12 charges

900 mana , 10 charges

its a buff, small one, but doesnt do anything about removal by itself. Lifebloom is an infinitely more powerful spell, because it heals on dispel

3) Focus not lost on shaman rage? no clue never been more than 31 pts enhance, and that was a long time ago

4)Healing grace dispel goes from 10-20-30% Ok so now theres a reason this talent exists, before it was craptacular

However the glaring fact that, no posative affect being on earth shield removal via dispel, makes this a 30% crapshoot. Earth Shield will get dispelled 7-10 times, and the second cast will cost half. its STILL more mana than arcane shot, and because our totem buffs are not self buffs, 30% dispel has no effect on them, theyre still pot shots at 5hps with a wand

buff protection isnt an option. Eye of the storm is too deep in elemental to take , I have to bring like 40+ fish scales into arena with me to spam unending breath, but still wont protect me, because arcane shot will remove buffs at random, Dont matter what "buffs" are protecting it. Felhunter will effectively eat my buffs more efficiently than i can cast them

If shaman had HoT healing, this would make more sense. If earthshield dispel had a negative effect to those dispelling, even better. But currently this change is marginally unimaginative and seems like a last minute sloppy addition.

5) I wont bust chops about being overdue, just glad totem interface is here

6) tooltip and icon changes, who cares





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Blue Poster
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#27 - 2008/02/11 05:43:12 PM
Great thread. I appreciate seeing some feedback on these. I am also interested in reaction on the totem UI change.

Keep in mind, I can't answer the question of "what's next", but I can say what I've said in General, 2.4.0 is meant to be a progressive patch. We'll be adding more into it as we go including some class changes. Who is getting changed, how many changes and more, I couldn't say at this point in time. We'll be watching for feedback as we go along.

We're also still reading the feedback threads at the top of the forums and collecting it.

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Blue Poster
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#42 - 2008/02/11 05:54:46 PM
Q u o t e:


Many thanks, Nethaera.
I'm glad to see finally a response from a blue post that at the very least someone is reading the constructive feedback that is being suggested here.

As far as the totem UI change AMEN. A very good thing indeed.

Edited for typos.


We've even read all the, "They're probably not reading this anyway" comments. ;)

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Blue Poster
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#118 - 2008/02/11 07:10:43 PM
Q u o t e:


It's an improvement but I'm still going to use mods to cast my totems and here's why. I don't want to throw all my totems onto my action bar and assort them by elements. TotemTimers mod puts all the totems there right in front of you for east casting and recasting, and sorts them by element, and best of all it doesn't take up space in the action bars. 2 minutes is also way too short for totems.


Thanks. I think it's understood that Totem Mods will still be the preferred choice for some people, but this may help out some as well. It's like many things we've done before where we weren't strictly looking to get rid of mods from doing some things, but instead give people something that is integral to the interface right 'out of the box' so to speak.

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Blue Poster
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#126 - 2008/02/11 07:14:26 PM
Q u o t e:


Any word on enhance re-itemization similar to ret paladin re-itemization? WTS - Int. and mp5


I'll have to add this to questions we ask. I can't guarantee an answer, but can ask or see if it's something we've discussed before that I may just not be remembering.

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Blue Poster
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#130 - 2008/02/11 07:16:39 PM
Q u o t e:


are you gonna have more totem ui changes in this patch then just the timers or is this all we can expect from the totem ui you've been telling us about for the last 3yrs.


Unknown at this point in time. Keep in mind that despite appearances, UI modifications can sometimes take time. If you noticed the notes, we made quite a few changes to how things are organized and show including the Combat log updates.

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Blue Poster
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#142 - 2008/02/11 07:29:42 PM
Q u o t e:

lies.


I read that. tsk tsk

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Blue Poster
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#171 - 2008/02/11 07:49:12 PM
Q u o t e:
neth does it make it easier to complie allt he results of this thread into the original post


or do you parse the entire thread for the relative data concerning testing experiences?


ill pull all the junk to the OP if needed to further the process, all in the name of shamans everywhere


If you mean the feedback thread at the top of the forum, it depends on what feedback you're giving. For 2.4.0, here and the Test Forum are best. For more general Shaman feedback based on the top sticky post, it's best to go ahead and use the format there and post your feedback so it can be added to the other we've compiled.

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Blue Poster
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#187 - 2008/02/11 08:15:29 PM
Q u o t e:


We won't get the response. If you pay close attention, she says she'll ask them, but no mention of coming back and telling us the answer. Never infer anything from a CM's post, only believe what they say plainly.


We don't always get to come back with a defining answer for you. What we (the Community Team) can do is acknowledge things and carry them to the Development team to mull over. They may not have an immediate response or it may tie into something else they're already thinking about.

I'm not here to give false hopes. I'm here to listen and relay feedback the same as anyone on the team does. We don't always have answers for you, but we try to do what we can.

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Blue Poster
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#203 - 2008/02/11 08:41:34 PM
Q u o t e:


I do appreciate all your input here. It makes a difference.

If I may be so bold as to ask a little more about the nature of the Community Team... given that instances of a CM saying "I've heard what you said and will ask the dev team about it and maybe get you a response" far outweigh instances of "I talked to the devs and they said this...", is this actually a restriction on your team itself? As in, if you go ask the devs something, and they say "huh we're thinking about it", or "we don't know yet", are you in any way prohibited from telling us their answer? Are you only allowed to share things that are specifically "vetted" for public consumption, or is it just that sometimes you don't feel the answer is worth passing on?

I'm just curious as to your structure, as compared to some other PR/CM teams you seem to have a closer relationship with the devs in some ways, but in others not.


We generally don't like to come back with a "we're thinking about X" just in case it doesn't happen. As much as it seems like a great way of keeping in touch and letting people know what we're thinking about, it tends to cause issues if it's an idea that the community itself loves, but isn't going to work out on our end. While we could say why it won't work out, sometimes that could lead to needing to give more information than we're comfortable with etc.

We do try to share what we can and hopefully some changes can stand on their own. If we're sharing something, it's something that we're pretty sold on, but like anything, we can and do change our minds depending on further testing or feedback.

Edit- Siguror you didn't say anything wrong. I was just trying to clear up some other questions for people based on what they said and expound a bit on what you said as well.

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Blue Poster
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#209 - 2008/02/11 08:48:00 PM
Q u o t e:

Would it be possible to get a blue post here explaining Blizzards current thoughts on the role of each of the Shaman specs? I think this would clarify a great deal for many players.


This can be a double-edged sword. We tend to avoid trying to define specs publicly just so that people don't feel as if they are being forced into one thing or another. We prefer for people to play what they enjoy most. Again, this is a double-edged sword since of course, we are designing with roles in mind and the community at large already has their ideas of what spec is best for what.

By not defining what people should be doing in certain specs, it also opens up the possibility for people to do things we didn't design into it. It allows the unexpected to happen. Sometimes that can be good and sometimes it can be bad depending on the end result. ;)


*Eyonix is fine. He's been busy though there has been a lovely flu that has hit a few of us particularly hard this last end of week/weekend. I'm still recovering myself.

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Blue Poster
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#225 - 2008/02/11 09:08:18 PM
Q u o t e:


rofl...its true

as far as eyonix and the rest of the team over there...glad you are all getting over the flu....but in all honesty....can we have you as our new CM <3 =D


We CMs are drifters. We like being able to get around the forums and see who is doing what and keeping tabs on the community overall. While we may focus on one thing or another from time to time, we all work together to keep our eyes on the community at large. Keeping ourselves well rounded gives us a better overall viewpoint of what is going on in the game from many vantages.

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Blue Poster
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#229 - 2008/02/11 09:10:27 PM
Q u o t e:


I see, that makes sense. Of course you're aware that when you *don't* respond it gets interpreted as neglect. "Between a rock and a hard place," eh?



Sometimes, yes. :) Despite appearances, we do love what we do and do care about the community.

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Blue Poster
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#243 - 2008/02/11 09:25:19 PM
Q u o t e:


Which makes me wonder if the Devs care, because they don't come here and talk with us. There is little to no transparency for the development process. Which is extremely frustrating, since obvious problems usually aren't even acknowledged.



They definitely care. But, they do have to keep in mind the larger picture as well and be cautious about how their ideas can change the scope of the game as a whole. They may not have something to say, but they too read and listen.

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Blue Poster
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#259 - 2008/02/11 09:53:14 PM
Q u o t e:


2. Do the "dev's" actually play the shaman class? If so I find it hard to believe that they would not experience the same issues we are all expressing here.



Some things I just won't be able to answer for you or would need to answer later if I'm able. As for your second question, this comes up quite often, but honestly, the entire company plays. The developers themselves have multiple characters they play the same as anyone else. We play on live realms. (I'm including the CM team in here too.) We play in guilds, in pugs, in arena, in Battlegrounds and more. We're always getting into whatever we can both on the test realms and in the live realms.

I know it's easy for people to believe we are in some secluded bubble because they aren't seeing the changes they feel should be made. But, that doesn't mean that we aren't there in the thick of things with everyone else. We also realize that different people have different experiences outside our own and we do our best to take all of those into account. At the same time, we need to practice removing ourselves from our own personal desires at times so that we still keep the larger picture in mind.

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Blue Poster
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#331 - 2008/02/11 11:55:02 PM
Q u o t e:
Dont chase the blue away!


It may appear that I am gone, but it doesn't mean I'm not still around. Keep in mind, we do have other duties to attend to, but I wanted to be able to set aside some time to come visit here. Again, I'm not here to make promises. I'm just here letting people know we're reading just the same. I can't guarantee specific changes either and I'm not promising that.

I did also take the time to post in the Test Realm that this is a progressive patch. There are more things that will be added to the notes over time. Again, what specific changes and who they pertain to, I couldn't say. I can say that with all of the class changes in 2.3.2, we wanted to wait a bit and see how they panned out before jumping headlong into more changes for 2.4.0, but there will be more class changes for 2.4.0 We're watching how things play out carefully.

I'm sure that if I'm not responding, someone will claim it's because I've stopped by, waved my little hat and moved on. Someone will say it's the same as we always say and to go away until we have something more concrete. Others will claim that it is a sign of other things to come. Some will say it's the same thing we always say. It may be, but until there is more that can be said, I'm going to at least acknowledge what is being said for those that want the acknowledgment. It's also just my way of letting people know that I do appreciate the constructive discussion that is held here.

It's not my place to say what developer plays what character where etc. I can say there are many that play Shaman, but I can say that for any class. That was the point of my previous statement.

I respect those that post passionately while staying constructive. I don't hold grudges against particular people. I understand what it's like to be a passionate gamer having been one for almost my entire life. ;)

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Blue Poster
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#334 - 2008/02/12 12:07:35 AM
My current "spree" has to do with those Shaman I got to talk to a bit over the weekend that pointed out some great posts that I wanted to acknowledge. I didn't want to leave them feeling as if the posters that posted negatively were detracting from their own constructive posts.

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Blue Poster
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#340 - 2008/02/12 12:16:22 AM
I've expanded the thread length and would please ask everyone to keep it on topic. If you feel you would like to share your feedback on the Community Team or communication with us, please feel free to email to [email protected] and reserve this space for the Shaman feedback as originally started in this thread.

Thanks!

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Blue Poster
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#455 - 2008/02/12 06:22:00 PM
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Well. I'm going to call it early, so I can say "I told you so." Neth won't ever return. Our "notes" won't be passed on. It was a short ray of light to get us to stop for a moment - and I think it almost worked. Oh well. Back to us sitting miserably in our corner - all 150 of us remaining....


Ever is a very long time.

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Blue Poster
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#465 - 2008/02/12 06:46:21 PM
Q u o t e:

Customer Service is meant to be constructive, not used for brainwashing the people who are upset.


I'm not in Customer Service. I'm a part of a Community Team. I know people get confused by this, but it's important to understand our functions are different.

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Blue Poster
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#470 - 2008/02/12 06:56:50 PM
Q u o t e:


any chance we can open up a "community discussion" about each of the changes where the community team member gives some input?


You can, but keep in mind, getting specific feedback isn't instantaneous. I can gather feedback as I said I would, and ask specific questions of the Development Team and hopefully come back with something that answers those questions when I can do so. It takes time, however, and more than just a day or two.

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Blue Poster
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#476 - 2008/02/12 07:06:39 PM
Q u o t e:
my point is, you have watched us disect each one of the changes. Some of us have to be totally off base with our thinking and some us us may be on track. Is there any chance you can enlighten us a bit on what you have heard about these changes? And why?


I can work on that for you. Sure. I can't promise I will come back with everything you want right away, but can see what more I can get to help.

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Blue Poster
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#484 - 2008/02/12 07:14:07 PM
Q u o t e:


Its cool- these should be easy!

1) What was the reasoning behind changing Call of Thunder after all this time? This has been a known bonus for Shaman since the talent was introduced.

2) Does Blizzard know that the talent is now less powerful for an Elemental Shaman than Tidal Mastery is (in the resto tree?)

3) Why was Earthshield, essentially broken in half? Half the cost, half the charges? ( I know, its not EXACT, but its close)

4) Who ordered the new Stormstrike Icon? (its hot, but for those who were starving for some Enhancement improvements, this is like opening the box on the display floor and hearing "waa-wa--waaaaaaaaa!)

5) Not a question, really, but tell them thank you for working on a UI.

6) Tell them, also, for catching the Fire Nova Bug and the Elemental Focus bug as well.

and the big number-

7) Do they really think these changes benefit the class? I am not against a nerf if the nerf is necessary, but is this the best the development team has to offer Shaman as Benefitial changes?


I believe for the last question, the answer is more along the lines of, there are more changes for the classes planned for 2.4.0 and of course beyond. Each change that is being made is with the future development of the class and the game as a whole.

They'll appreciate the other comments as well and as for new icons, it's something done by the art department and not specifically a class change, but icon changes are sometimes done when an icon wasn't meant to be permanent or even when an icon is too similar to another and they feel it's better to change it. That said, I can always see if there is a more specific answer as to why this icon was changed.

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Blue Poster
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#536 - 2008/02/12 09:09:26 PM
Q u o t e:



Yesterday, you said you enjoyed playing your shaman and I called you a liar. You then banned me for three hours. FYI, I was joking. Like if someone were to tell you they like your favorite band, and then you coyly look at them and say 'liar', as if to insinuate that they were just trying to ingratiate themselves with you, but in reality you know that they really do like your favorite band, and you were just messing with them. It was that kind of joke.

But yeah. I wasn't trying to be malicious, I was just kidding with you. I enjoy playing my shaman too. I also wrote a thread somewhere around here about why shaman is the least played class. Whether or not its entirely accurate I couldn't say, but it seems to resonate with most of the shaman who've read it, and I think it captures a lot of what they can't put into words, specifically why this class still feels broken to many players in spite of its great output in PvE, battlegrounds, and 5v5 arena.


It's hard to tell when someone is just trolling and when they aren't with single word responses. Sorry about that. :(

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Blue Poster
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#734 - 2008/02/14 08:01:47 PM
Q u o t e:


does this mean 2.4 will be getting stuff added to it while in the ptr before it goes live, or wil there be several smaller patches that will add more changes after 2.4?


More is going to be added into 2.4.0 before it goes live. I can't say what further patches may occur before the expansion though.

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Blue Poster
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#744 - 2008/02/14 08:42:58 PM
Q u o t e:
You get a "hello" and "welcome back" from me as well.

Now- let me ask you this...

The sort of feedback you are getting from this and the other threads that have occured since your initial stop here a few days ago- Is this the sort of feedback you can use or does posting new talent ideas and trivial complaining get in the way? Do you want to see us vent our discontent or would you prefer we simply keep it to ourselves and never see the class fixed?

And...

Will the coming 2.4 changes you mention have a POSITIVE impact on the way we view our class and our abilities? You can at least answer that one, guilt free. What we all fear is the removal of more of our abilities and scalability. What we hope for is change that helps cover our bald spots, so to speak...


It is good feedback, yes. Though, posting discontent should be focused and constructive still and while new talent ideas are interesting, they may not always be the most helpful.

I can't guarantee results based on the current feedback, but you never know what may spark a different but similar change.

I am still planning to get what information back to you that I can. Again, I can't give you a specific time or what exactly I can come back with, but I'm going to see what I can do even if it's to say, I can't bring you anything yet.

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Blue Poster
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#747 - 2008/02/14 08:51:45 PM
Q u o t e:


Neth any idea when 2.4 will go live? Because I personally would like to see some ammendments to the patch which address at the very least pvp survivability.


No ETA yet. Sorry.

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Blue Poster
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#754 - 2008/02/14 09:03:33 PM
Q u o t e:
I know that Blizzard has asked in the past to stear away from putting direct ideas down, hence why I asked that. I also know that most people sounding off are not all that constructive (myself included). However, I want YOU to see that when you talk to us- really come back with some degree of frequency, that most of us will want to COMMUNICATE with you...

So tell me this-

How can WE help YOU, seeing as you actually seem interested in helping us without mocking us.


You're doing what you need to be doing really. I don't want to control what people say as long as they aren't breaking the code of conduct and of course staying constructive. Everything else is about relaying the thoughts and ideas you have and letting it go from there. You're not going to get every question answered or every idea implemented, but you never know what bits will spark change (small or large) that start a chain of events. Change also doesn't always happen as quickly as you may like. For us, time goes by incredibly fast most of the time because there is always so much more left to be done and so little time to do it. For you, it seems to go far more slowly than you would like.

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Blue Poster
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#839 - 2008/02/15 05:46:42 PM
Q u o t e:
I'll take that bet- She will show up at the end of the day with another "I am getting information for you".

Not much will be said at this point- It is still too early for her to have information for us. I wouldn't count on any REAL information until early next week.

But then again, I may be wrong...


Apparently, I've shown up much too early. I could come back at the end of the day if you like.

I actually have been working to gather feedback for you all (as has Eyonix) so that everyone knows where we are with the status of changes for the Shaman both for 2.4.0 and a little more about the future as well.

I'm not going to say it's all sunshine and roses. There are going to be things people aren't going to like and ideas you won't agree with. That doesn't mean the Shaman class is being put down, scrubbed, destroyed, or any other thing.

When I have more that I can share of a definitive nature, I will be ( or even Eyonix depending on the coin toss.) This isn't a brush off. It's just my way of letting you know that we're not just sitting around.

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Blue Poster
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#848 - 2008/02/15 06:01:58 PM
Q u o t e:


I'm already sad just reading this...

Ok - I've heard it said its good if there can be a little good news in with the bad..

I'll be honest, the way I'm reading that I'm thinking its gonna be pretty much what I'd consider bad.

Neth - youve read the posts here. Anything coming you think we'll consider "good"?



First off, the coin toss thing was a joke. ;) Please don't take it any other way.

Second off, I believe there is good that will come with the bad. We're working on the idea of balance as always and taking many things into very careful consideration as we go along. Some things may seem arbitrary, but there is a method to the madness. We will do what we can to shed light on the methods where we can.