Learn to take Criticism, Blizzard (It Lives!)

#0 - Dec. 13, 2006, 11:08 p.m.
Blizzard Post
NOTE: This is the topic at page 51, then got deleted. Luckily i had the OPs topic still up when it got deleted. Since a ton of people agreed with what he was saying, and i also did. I will repost in, in case no one else has it.

Once again, this is NOT my work, but do not remember the persons name that did write it. Thought id repost it, and keep the thread alive for those posting in it.


"Bit of a rant directed at Blizzard. If it doesn't tickle your fancy, feel free to move along. Or brandish your intellect by flaming, should the mood take you. I would never dream of turning down the priceless entertainment that is a forum goer making a fool of themselves for my amusement ^_^ But should you find you have something to say in support of or against my assertions here, please, feel free.




Blizzard has for some time now been developing a growing inability to handle negative feedback gracefully. It can be seen clearly in the way they manage these forums. I use the term manage loosely here, as what I'm talking about is actually an inability to manage the negative feedback a forum like this one can be home to.

To take one example, Blizzard has a growingly swift "delete thread" tendency whenever the community begins to unify around a single idea. Should the community here produce more then a handful of threads related to a single issue, Blizzard begins arbitrarily shooting these threads down, usually with no explanation given within the threads themselves. These sudden deletions only fuel the conspiracy theorists that dwell in these lands by making it appear that Blizzard doesn't want people to know, or speak about certain things.

Well, there is a bit of a conspiracy here. But nothing so magical as downed alien spacecraft or whether balloons in swamp gas. The "secret" is that Blizzard, at its core, has a child-like intolerance for negative feedback. I'll open with an example that veterans of these forums will remember.

A while back, when the Tier 2 set art was "previewed" by Blizzard, a great deal of negative feedback was received with regards to two of the sets in particular. The warrior "can opener" set, and the hunter "pink is for power" set. Accompanying this often constructive, but sometimes painfully frank negative feedback was a plethora of positive reaction to the general feel of this, the next Tier in Warcraft raiding achievements.

I wont name any names as it isn't really necessary and might just give Blizzard an excuse to "moderate" this thread, but a certain member of the development team who appears on these forums from time to time had what can only be called a "meltdown". In a surreal display that gave the impression of a child laying on the ground, pounding his fists and screaming, this individual proceeded to blast the entire online Warcraft community for their negative responses. So incapable of digesting what should have been a perfectly routine and expected mix of positive and negative reactions on the part of the community, this individual proceeded to threaten the community by never again "pushing" for previews of upcoming content.

(It should be noted here that this "push" was rather unremarkable, in that the Chinese WoW website already had this information available for anyone who wanted to see it. BEFORE the US community team managed to get us a preview.)

So heinous was this outburst that other members of the Community Management team actually had to step in and apologize for this individual. And for what? Because less then 100% of the community's feedback was positive. Imagine that.


This incident highlights exactly the kind of inability I speak of on the part of Blizzard to handle negative feedback. Now, onto a more current issue. The deletion of threads on these forums. Currently, Blizzard has presented the community with a kind of catch-22 situation when it comes to our ability to voice dissatisfaction with various elements of the game. On the one hand, Blizzard strongly discourages petitions and outright refuses to implement a time honored and tested method of researching and expressing public opinion: The Poll. That being the case, forum goers are forced to created their own threads instead of simply finding and participating in a thread featuring one of these convenient mediums for expression.

Heres where we run into a problem: The forums are vast. And, for the most part, the community has no interest in reading through 100 posts to find one about the topic they have in mind. To expect the community to do this is more then a little naive on Blizzard's part but that hasn't seemed to stop them. So, an individual with something to say creates a new thread about a topic. And here's where Blizzards apparent "game plan" for handling negative feedback springs into action. A moderator (usually never gracing the thread with his or her presence to explain their actions) does a quick check to see if any threads on that topic already exist. If this issue is already under debate elsewhere in the forum, the new thread is deleted without explanation. Just *POOF* gone.

"Well who CARES?! QQ More. The forums are congested as it is. We don't need 50 threads about the same thing." I can already hear people screaming this at their monitors. And they'd be right, except this method of thread removal isn't universal. Its not some general rule adhered to with reguards to all topics of discussion. It is very, very localized and usually pertains to only one kind of thread. The negative feedback thread. And thats just silly.

Blizzard is always content to sit back and let hundreds of "I like pie", "Lol @ casuals", "Paladins should be healing, not fighting", and "QQ more, warriors" threads amass. And why not? These threads allow the community to beat itself up. To bash it's own brains in. But as soon as you get more then two or three "Wow's graphics are pathetic" or "Seriously Blizzard, learn to network" threads the mod team jumps into action. Threads start disappearing one after another. The "Blizzard only like to hear positive feedback" line has been crossed.

And, to be fair, this method of PR makes sense. One post about an issue is a novelty. Something that can be brushed off as one person's opinion. But when 100 threads show up on the forum, Blizzard is suddenly faced with an image problem. When the majority of the forum-going community come together to voice a unified opinion, Blizzard breaks out the "delete thread" button and starts "touching up" their online image. Convenient, no?

So long as it doesn't LOOK like the majority of customers are dissatisfied about an issue, it must not be a big deal. Right? And Blizzard can make sure appearances favor them on the whole, by carefully pruning the forums on a daily basis. Lest the full voice of their community be heard, and seen by others.

This is why polls were never implemented on these forums. Far too direct and convenient a means for the community to voice a unified opinion. This is also why they frown on petitions. Sure, they claim these methods of collecting the general consensus of society are "unproductive". But then, if that were true, why are these same methods of data collection used so extensively in real life? Does Blizzard really think they understand society better then the rest of the world? Of course they don't. Its silly to expect more then an "I agree" from participants in a petition after a couple pages of a thread. Very little else is left to be said in most cases. To expect each member of the petition to add a unique 3 paragraph statement is pretty naive. But thats no reason to discourage the community from showing support one way or the other. If a simple "vote" is all that is needed to show that support, why discourage your community from showing it?

The truth is voting, polls, and petitions are discouraged or outright disallowed because they give the community a way of unifying. Its much easier to dismiss a single thread, and the participants within it. To ignore a problem when so few threads exist to make it publicly known is no challenge at all. But if Blizzard were to allow or even support polls and petitions, they would no longer be able to ignore the hot topics without making a public statement. One that would surely paint them in a bad light.

And to be honest, thats their right. They don't even have to host these forums if they don't want to. All they have to do is keep customers. If they can do that while making every effort to sabotage attempts made by those customers to voice their opinion in great numbers, then props to them. Castro would be proud. ;) Its just disappointing to see a company with Blizzard's pedigree stoop to such petty tactics. If your going to host a forum and reap the benefits of praise and constructive feedback that a forum can provide, then have the courage to accept the challenges that public scrutiny within that same medium can present to a gaming company.

Learn this Blizzard: There is value to be found in a mass of "I agree". What a simple "/signed" doesn't tell you in details, it makes up for in context. What you gain from allowing the community to simply "/nod" in approval gives depth to an issue, if not detail. "The graphics in this game need an update" suddenly becomes "The graphics in this game need an update, and by the way the majority of the community thinks its time you get to work on it". There is value to be found in simple agreement, in spite of what the CM's regularly claim."
#43 - Dec. 14, 2006, midnight
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lol, I posted in the wrong thread.

I think I'm calling it a day.
#50 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:03 a.m.
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Q u o t e:


So now you're going to taunt us 'If you're going to bump a post, at least add some flaming to it.'

You think you're funny with your snide comments.

You're just rude and unprofessional.

You need some coaching, it seems.



My comments weren't snide. They were honest and direct questions.

As I said previously, I posted in the wrong thread. I thought this was the 'Oh, Great' thread.
#53 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:06 a.m.
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Q u o t e:
I was bumping it because if you don't allow polls or petitions, the only way the community has of letting you know their thoughts is by having 50pages of a thread.

As opposed to what would happen with a petition post? 50 pages of much less commentary, opinion or real feedback, but page after page of /signed?

What you are suggesting is actually taking a step backwards from actually voicing your opinion.
Q u o t e:
For that to be deleted/ reached its limit/whatever, should tell you that there is something seriously wrong with your customer service image.

It was an accident. Not a deliberate supression of opinion. Perception is half of it, yes. However, this one issue does not represent the whole of the matter.

My opinions were in there too and I still stand by them. There are other sources which archived those comments, as already linked in this thread.
#76 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:17 a.m.
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Q u o t e:
I never saw Tseric's response since I wasn't going to scan through all those pages just to find a blue post. After seeing his reply it's obvious that Blizzard needs to invest in some CS skills courses for the people that are the "official" face of Blizzard on the forums. I've sent a few times thru feedback how we at Disney offer seminars in how to provide Superior Customer Service but I see they are not interested. Perhaps it's just me working 20 years for Disney providing that type of CS but if Tseric was representing Disney, there's a few parts of his post that would jeprodize his job status. The first rule of CS is to NOT publically imply that the person is wrong which he did a few times and the times he did it, there is no clear evidence in the OP for Tseric to be able to back up his incorrect assumption. It makes me sad that people are allowed to consider themselves profession CS when they can not even follow the basic rules.

Well, the thing about your comments is that I don't consider myself in CS, nor am I really in CS. There are customer relations involved, but we are here for discussion, feedback and amusement. There is no literal customer service I can provide you. All I can provide is information and opinion.
Q u o t e:
The first rule of CS is to NOT publically imply that the person is wrong which he did a few times and the times he did it, there is no clear evidence in the OP for Tseric to be able to back up his incorrect assumption.

I have provided a clear response that states there is no conspiracy of thread deletion and that polls and petitions are not a good source of discussion or useful feedback or expressing the opinions of the player base. Again, customer service doesn't really come into this. There is no service to provide. We are merely debating points.
Q u o t e:
It makes me sad that people are allowed to consider themselves profession CS when they can not even follow the basic rules.

I don't consider myself in the terms you are providing, because this is not a customer service position. The Customer Service forum is distinct from this one, in that they can provide more of the Customer Service you seem to be aiming at.
#88 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:24 a.m.
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Q u o t e:
Its quicker and more efficient to set up a survey Blizzard should take note "Should there be a 30% honor reduction" majority wins how hard is that to decipher, lol

Surveys take a lot of time to create, issue and then collect. They do not fit all cases. Also, the way you phrased the question really leaves only one answer.

You are missing the point where these issues can change on short notice. Everything in this game is subject to change.

Now, with this issue, there was no time. The announcement was abrupt. Sunday, we had one set of information, Monday that information changes. Where is the time we can put a survey out for that?
#93 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:26 a.m.
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Q u o t e:
Wait... so the reason this post was deleted... was because Tseric acidently clicked... delete... instead of reply... on one of the biggest topics around at the moment, and when it resurfaces, he doesn't immediately go to it and apologize, or say what he was going to say when he "acidently" deleted it... but instead completly ignores it until he acidently posted in it and got stuck. You didn't even mention WHICH post you acidently deleted in your "Oh Great" post (I could be wrong but I didn't see it) so it cannot be considered an apology, not that I think you intended to give one.

I posted immediately after the thread disappeared. Why are you trying to portray events simply to make me look bad?
#108 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:31 a.m.
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Q u o t e:
um, PTR? You do test this game, yes? You did have access to information and statistics prior to the release of this patch, yes? And by you, I mean Blizzard.

PTR testing with large systems like the honor system can yield different results. As an example, the surge of PvPing on the live realms currently was not reflected exactly in PTRs, because the incentive isn't the same. BG rewards end up getting wiped so players won't play it as hard.

We set the levels in the beginning with a certain estimation. That estimation was off, mostly because of exceeding demand and participation. So, the honor gain is throttled back to come closer to a real assessment of how long the average player can attain the rewards.

Q u o t e:
Also, are you conceding the point that surveys/petitions do fit some cases? That maybe they should be viewed as a valid information gathering tool by Blizzard?

We already use surveys. Have for a while. We do regard them as tools for getting certain opinion. What is your point?
#111 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:32 a.m.
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Q u o t e:
Is there a way to portray events in a way that you don't look bad?

At this point, probably not. You'd look just as bad in my shoes and there would be nothing you could do about it either. So, is that really the person or the perception that's wrong?
#126 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:36 a.m.
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Q u o t e:


Oh interesting! May I ask how?

Through email, usually. Marketing surveys, opinion polls, etc.

Random sampling of the player base at large.
#130 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:39 a.m.
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Q u o t e:
Don't tell me that's beyond the capacity of the forums.

If you close yourself off from the truth before it is even presented, what can I say?

These forums aren't really advanced technology. When something is deleted, it is gone.

However, you can review all of my responses on blue tracker, as they are practically immediately archived.
#143 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:44 a.m.
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Q u o t e:
Perhaps if they didn't have the time to ask whether or not the players wanted it, maybe they should have thought through their decision a little more than just getting some reports and throwing the likely consensus of their customers to the wind?

What consensus, though? There really isn't a consensus. Yes, there are a good amount of vocal people that are displeased with this change. Can't say I blame them, there is really nothing to like about having something simply reduced.

However, what about those people who have commented saying they are ok with the change or it isn't a big deal? Those people are usually shouted down or simply labelled sheep or fanbois. There are plenty of these people with differing opinions, yet they get lumped into a category. Ironic when the vocal people claim that their concerns are patently dismissed, yet they perpetrate that behavior on others.

The issue is, the people that are angry quickly jump to the notion that everyone agrees with them. The people who are less upset regard the matter from different angles.
#153 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:49 a.m.
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I'm still waiting for that survey....

?!?!?!

What can I say? Surveys are random. No one player is guaranteed a survey?

Even if you were to get one, you wouldn't recieve a response to the survey, which might be what you're really looking for.

Right? I mean, why do you really want to take a survey? To submit feedback in a standard form? Or do you want to actually 'put a hand on the lever' so to speak and see measurable change to your input?
#163 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:52 a.m.
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Q u o t e:


one way to figure out if its just a minority of vocal people or a majority is to.....wait for it.....have a survey!
You actually do have the time to implement one now.

Nice, data access error...

Well, seeing as so many people claimed to quit over this issue, there is another method.

Check Billing data and account closures for that period. There is a window to provide customer comment on why a player cancelled.
#171 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:56 a.m.
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Q u o t e:


We call those people the minority, stop catering to them already. Huge threads with mass support arise from the majority, little threads that get shouted down are the minority. If you give more credit to the minority then the majority, you are making a bad decision.

Ummm, those people aren't the minority. Nor are you a clear cut majority. 'Huge threads with mass support' can be created by a handful of vocal posters. It happens so often, that it is the general rule, rather than the exception.

I apologize if I can not agree with your particular assessment of what the majority or minority of players are.
#178 - Dec. 14, 2006, 12:58 a.m.
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Q u o t e:

I don't know, I uh, really want my opinion to matter in some small way to Blizzard?

And, how can you know definitively that your opinion matters?

I could tell you that this is the case, but would you believe me?

I could state that feedback has made its way into the actual game, but would you believe me?

The issue is, everyone wants their opinion to matter and it does. The break in logic comes when you expect your idea to be regarded as the correct one and be implemented into the game.
#193 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:05 a.m.
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Q u o t e:

The simple fact is, GM blues and blizzards are facist naz-is who control the community by deleting, belittling, ignoring and most of all BULLYING the community misusing GM powers.

And the thread has been Godwin'd.

Thanks for playing, folks. :)
#210 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:12 a.m.
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Q u o t e:
Why is Tseric so afraid of surveys anyhow?

If our opinion matters but may not be implemented as you desire (which is fair), what's the harm in showing/polling the view? As a developer/CM - why the heck would you NOT want the information?

Other than to suppress the information from the public in the first place?


Where did you get that I was afraid of surveys?

Why does this happen every time I get involved in discussion with players? People start tacking on emotional qualifiers and confusing the points.

It's like talking in a vacuum.
#214 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:13 a.m.
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Q u o t e:
Do you really understand the work it takes to properly set up a statistic, even a simple survey that will show no bias? Would you belive blizzard if they did an in house survey that showed favorable numbers for them? The time and thought it takes to make a good statistic is not immpossible for blizzard, but IMO impractical for this current situation.

Thank you. Important point towards the matter of surveys.
#226 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:16 a.m.
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Q u o t e:


if noone cares, then why did you feel the need to post?

I just really want a viable forum in which not just I, but all wow players can make their opinions heard. Its become painfully obvious that that is not these forums.

But, your opinions are heard here.

I apologize, but I still think you are confusing listening with acknowledgement or acquiecense to your particular opinion.

People voice their opinions and are listened to on this forum every day.
#239 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:22 a.m.
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Q u o t e:

I think i messed up the quote part, but for me to believe that a multi-billion dollar company would lack the infrastructure and the will to set up a mass survey is a little mind-boggling.

That is not the point. Forum polls are inherently biased because they are public and peoples opinion is swayed by collective opinion. I can provide you a link that demonstrates one aspect of this if you like. Really interesting stuff.
#249 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:26 a.m.
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It's like talking in a vacuum when you choose to respond to such posts.


O.o Are you saying you deserve a reply more than that guy?

Q u o t e:
If our feedback is not being discussed or relayed to the developers, then what is the point of these forums?

You assume it isn't. It is. I have replied on the particular subject of honor. You are using a broad brush to paint specifics.
#253 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:27 a.m.
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Q u o t e:


Do you really think that they haven't told the devs that people didn't like the honor change?

Do you really think that the devs didn't ever consider player reaction when they made their decision?

Isn't it just possible that they thought of that and decided that the honor nerf was necessary in the long term despite the inevitable negative reaction?

Some more good questions.
#263 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:31 a.m.
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Q u o t e:


So freedom of information counts for nothing? Do you think people are any less biased by reading reams of vitriolic back and forth in these forums, all the while knowing that Blizzard really doesn't care about anything that's said in them?
Oh, I can't be bothered anymore: its like talking to a brick wall.

All I'm saying, is that surveys should not be used for every single purpose pertaining to every point of player input.

Q u o t e:
all the while knowing that Blizzard really doesn't care about anything that's said in them?

See. I can tell you that I do care and are listening and reply directly to comments made, but some people still won't believe what I say.

Q u o t e:
Oh, I can't be bothered anymore: its like talking to a brick wall.

If I was a brick wall, you never would have gotten any responses.

Again, you haven't really addressed the point I made. I believe you are taking issue with me merely because I don't agree with you, not because I'm not listening.
#270 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:33 a.m.
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Q u o t e:


None of my questions were good? None of Morata's questions or the other 50 (dunno how many at this point) were good?
Way to be unbiased and diplomatic....

I have replied to your questions as well. Holy jeez.

Your comment is full of the bias you are trying to accuse me of.

Unbelieveable.
#273 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:35 a.m.
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Q u o t e:
Yo Tseric, what's your favourite class?

>.> <,<

The one I'm playing right now, which, truth be told, is not a warlock. ;)
#283 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:37 a.m.
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Q u o t e:
i love how everyone bemoans that blizz doesnt listen. and when blizzard responds? the moaners dont listen...or call him silly names.

I...yeah. There is simply nothing I can say. So, I'm ending my day, because my day is at an end.

See you folks later.
#294 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:39 a.m.
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Q u o t e:


What other methods would you use, aside from recieving feedback from specified forum threads?

Other forums, blogs, etc. for opinions. Surveys are usually more for marketing stuff.

We have been looking into methods of different feedback or polling on the forums, but I can't really say anything definitive.
#311 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:47 a.m.
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Q u o t e:



I'm not assuming anything, you spliced my post to make it sound that way. The main point of my post is that THE COMMUNITY NO LONGER FEELS THAT OUR INPUT AND FEEDBACK IS AFFECTING THE GAME AS A WHOLE.

No need to yell.
So, if the truth isn't that we don't listen, but rather that you feel we don't listen shouldn't that be alleviated by someone who is listening and replying in a thread? Kind of like what is happening right now?

Again, we come back to the point that some players want to see measurable effect from the submission of their feedback.

"I feel this way and I think a lot of people agree with me, so Blizzard should make this change."

Well, if that change is made, it may take weeks or months. By that time, the players in question probably have the opinion after the first half-hour that the idea was ignored.

Frankly, there is no way that everyone is going to hold the same opinion that their feedback matters or is used. The people who do feel that way, post their submissions much the same and then move on.

It is those that disagree or are angry that come back again and again saying "You've ignored me for 2 years, Blizz!"
#325 - Dec. 14, 2006, 1:53 a.m.
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It takes two years to implement something like SCT?

If that was the only thing that was developed by the UI folks, you would have a point.

However, they have made additions to all sorts of things that don't necessarily fall under LUA script, like developing professions.
#357 - Dec. 14, 2006, 2:06 a.m.
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If you're still around, Tseric, I'd love to see that link. I deal with Internet-based surveys (which, because of the public results and other issues, are inherently unscientific and "for entertainment purposes only"), and I'd like to have some more information when I deal with irate people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments