You cannot have a system in an MMO....

#0 - May 16, 2008, 8:53 p.m.

...that rewards for putting players vs players.

The simple fact is that when you open up rewards to a system that can allow cheating, whether its win trading, team selling, point selling, and even LOSING,etc, you basically remove most incentives to do the fundamental point of the game, which is the PvE aspect of the game. The fundamental ideals of most players is to get the gear the easiest way possible...and usually that is manipulating or cheating the system. Some justify it as if its doable its not cheating, but it is.

You cannot walk into Karazhan and continually wipe on a boss and then receive a purple item 10 hours later. You have to BEAT the boss. You cannot enter a 5 man instance and just sit at the entrance AFK and 2 days later receive and purple item.

Arenas aren't popular because most people like them, they are popular because most people do them because they are an easy road to epics...but even that is now causing item dilution. I can tell you for a fact that PvP BG's were not that popular till 2.0 when they opened the AFK system. Before 2.0, barely anyone did the system and those that did were far and few between.

Im not saying Blizzards PvE aspect of the game is even right, but at least in WotLK we are getting the 10 man progression model which is pretty big for the majority of the players.

Blizzard, in WotLK, you have to stop having a system in place that rewards losing, cheating, etc. The point of the game is PvE (Im pretty sure leveling 1-70 was PvE content). Let PvP happen on its own and if you wan to do it for fun, have it not reward anything or make sure that the rewards are months and months behind the progression content.

Nethaera

#14 - May 16, 2008, 9:13 p.m.

I think you have opened a can of worms with this one. You could easily put something else into that sentence and come out with the same outcome. In the end, some players will always look for the shortcut or cheat that puts them ahead of others. That is human nature and nothing that can be programmed into the game, however, on our end of things, we are continuing to work toward making the playing field level where we can and making the experience in both PvE and PvP as rewarding as possible.

Nethaera

#64 - May 16, 2008, 9:55 p.m.

Q u o t e:

Sorry Candle

I know that essentially you're speaker of the Blizz coporate line, but as in so many many ways, with so many many Blue responses. Your response does not actually adress the OP original question. You speak of generalities the OP spoke of specifics, you speak of 'human nature' and the OP has given examples of cheats and exploits on the PVP side.

I do not agree that the PVP side cannot be saved, what it means is that PVP must someday face the same progression Curve as PVE. Otherwise it simply becomes in Blizz's own term - "welfare"

I didn't see too many specifics. The original poster made statements that we've seen before. My take on it is they opened a can of worms in that we have seen these same arguments before and it's hard to make a general "can't" statement without realizing that it can apply to more than in regard to PvP. To that end, PvE vs. PvP discussions have been going on since before World of Warcraft ever existed. One day someone will find the perfect recipe between the two.

I believe the original poster doesn't like PvP and feels they aren't being rewarded the same way PvEers are. Again, we've seen this concern before.

We are doing what we can to continue to make sure that PvP is competitive and fair both. This will always be a difficult balance because we don't want to take away anything to make it less fun and yet, we want to make sure those who abuse the system don't harm those that are staying within the bounderies as well.

Recently, in one of many of the interviews Tom and Jeff did, they explained that they are working hard to even out the disparity between PvE rewards and PvP rewards so that everyone feels like they are benefiting equally on both ends of the spectrum.

Nethaera

#90 - May 16, 2008, 10:20 p.m.

Q u o t e:

I agree that is most likely the intent, but the outcome of such efforts is the continued ease of which PVE can be progressed. PVE should not be easy, and folks, I tell you, it has become such.

I want to be challenged, not handed badge gear. Case in point; I rostered and did Mag over and over again, then Badge 2.0 came out and *poof* why do Mag? I have my badges for a easy win on the chest.

I am not trying to begrudge anyone something, but come on Nethaera, at some point there has to be a larger reward verses effort scale. That scale has honestly tipped too far towards ease of gear for the masses. If we are all epic then what is the point?

I understand what you are saying, and we are working to give everyone that challenge they are looking for. We're working on readjusting the scale (as you say).

In the meantime, I think you're making the mistake that many people have made in assuming that with the change to raiding to being both 10 and 25 player that it will automatically make it easy and be some sort of continuation of "easy" mode. While both are independent of each other as far as progression goes, they will get increasingly more difficult as you progress. Badge gear isn't going away, but progression for getting certain types of rewards are still going to be necessary. We'll be explaining more on that end as well in time.

Keep in mind, doing the 25, will net more rewards and again, progression in both 10 and 25 will get more difficult as you go along. We're definitely not working on "easy" mode, but we are working to make these experiences more accessible.

Nethaera

#123 - May 16, 2008, 10:52 p.m.

Q u o t e:

Even the PVP people are at each other throats?

This has been the norm since the advent of PvP. :) PvPers are a competitive lot and there are different ideas of what is and isn't a part of the PvP experience along with who is and isn't a "real" PvPer.

Q u o t e:
Why is it that Blizzard allows some BG's to start with uneven teams?

There is a minimum threshold of players that need to be ready for a game to start. To keep the queues lower (when possible) a game can start when there aren't exact even numbers.

Q u o t e:
Let us turn our eye to Arenas for the moment, they dont seem balanced to me?

We've acknowledged that some specs won't do as well as others. We've also said that we are working to continue to find balance within the Arena. It's not something that we are tossing aside and yet, we are continuing to be cautious in how we do it since we put alot of care into not adversely affecting PvE.

Q u o t e:
To conclude because i know it's a friday. At what point if ever, will blizzard start putting risk into PVP? Start increasing repair costs. PVP'ers (and im not saying you) often use the disngenous claim that this game is WARcraft to buttress thier opnion that PVP is the center of all things. If PVP'ers want all that snazy gear why shoudnt they have to put in the same effort (in time and gold though along a different path) as those who choose PVE

As you've noticed we continue to work on the requirements for Arena gear. Battlegrounds still take some investment to succeed and gain gear as well.

That said, we are working to make sure that PvP and PvE rewards are going to be about even with each other in the expansion. (When looked at in terms of progression levels.)

I've seen the argument that repair should cost more, that there should be more risk in PvP, and more. Adding more risk into PvP is great and all, but there are levels of risk that people are and are not willing to engage in. We want to make sure PvP is accessible and fun to as many people as want to take part in it as possible. As someone who has spent many years of my gaming life as a PvPer, I have to say, I've seen a large influx of people interested in PvP that would have never tried it in the past. I think that's a good thing.

You're right in that the pressure continues to be on us to make the challenge both on the PvP and PvE side worth something. We're not taking that lightly.