Comments from WWI Raid panel has me worried

#0 - June 29, 2008, 11:09 p.m.

Here are a couple of bullet point highlights, specifically ones that worry me the most:

1 - Heroic dungeons will be made slightly easier, at least devs are going to make sure you don't necessarily need a specific class like a prot warrior to complete it.

2 - Some dungeons were too long in Burning Crusade and completing a dungeon shouldn't take more than an hour.

Let's take point 1 first. It sounds fine and all, but honeslty... isn't that we thought what you were doing (and saying) all along? That a specific group makeup isn't required? PLEASE don't make these dungeons easier... I think you guys are losing track of your own dungeon balance. Remember you already gave the alliance shaman, and the horde paladins? Wasn't that supposed to allow for drastically different and cool balanced encounters? What ever happened to that? DO NOT make heroics easier! DESIGN THEM BETTER (yes I am a back seat game designer).

Point 2 is a but more serious in my mind...

You guys think 1 hour is too long for a dungeon? This is starting to feel like Super Mario World... nothing more than a platformer. No meat and substance.

I think a majority of the players at least that raid and do dungeons would argue we'd like to see more BIGGER dungeons like pre-BC. Think Blackrock Depths. Think Mauradon. Think Sunken Temple.... all of those were real dungeon crawls. Yes they were hard to finish in 1 session... but that was the point.

Maybe you can design massive dungeons like BRD, that are non linear and the quest objectives in them are about an hour apiece... but there are 5-6 of them in there, so it's up to the players to choose how long to spend. As a matter of fact, BRD was a near perfect dungeon... you just have ot get the playerbase to understand that it's a dungeon crawl, and is not intended to be completed all at once and "cleared" which is the mentality you are fostering.

Don't fall into the trap where you're making everything easier (totems for the whole raid? WHy is it a good idea now but wasn't way back when? Because now you want things EASIER for players).

Kind of went all over the place there, but hopefully the sentiment came thru.

Bornakk

#142 - June 30, 2008, 5:22 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Here are a couple of bullet point highlights, specifically ones that worry me the most:

1 - Heroic dungeons will be made slightly easier, at least devs are going to make sure you don't necessarily need a specific class like a prot warrior to complete it.

This should allow them to be more accessible while building a stronger progression line of max level dungeons into the heroic dungeons and then on into the 10/25 person raid dungeons.

Q u o t e:
2 - Some dungeons were too long in Burning Crusade and completing a dungeon shouldn't take more than an hour.

While we plan to make more non-linear dungeons, that doesn't mean they need to take 5 hours to complete.

Bornakk

#231 - June 30, 2008, 7:46 p.m.

Q u o t e:

Thanks for posting Bornakk....

Hopefully, the devs are aware that there is a large contingent of players that like the idea of epic instances that you don't need to clear all in one sitting, etc. There are those of us that loved the pre-BC experience of 5 mans, specifically BRD and the potential it had (ans Uldaman, and Sunken Temple, etc).

As a matter of fact I am certain that there are developers on staff that feel the same way and have no doubt that heated discussion ensue about dungeon design!

Which brings me to my ultimate worry: When it comes time to make a decision who wins? Is Blizzard making gameplay decisions based on subscriber retention as opposed to fun?

We do what we think will be the most fun enjoyable experience that is best for the game. While you may mention that Blackrock Depths was a fun dungeon, it also received many complaints back in the day. We want to bring the epic feeling of a dungeon like this into a shorter dungeon that is more enjoyable to run through and complete.

Then from these 5 person dungeons you can move up the progression chain to the 10/25 person raids. With Naxxramas being the initial raid dungeon it should be a great starting point for players as they work through a large dungeon like this and then move on to a place like Ulduar.

Bornakk

#325 - June 30, 2008, 11:08 p.m.

Q u o t e:

Please keep in mind that "progression" leading exclusively into raids is going to make many people unhappy.

There are many of us who do not want to raid, ever, under any circumstances. This is not a matter of difficulty one way or the other, but simply of whether or not one enjoys the very different playstyle that comes with larger groups.

So I urge you to not decide that 5-man dungeons can be fast and shallow because they're just stepping stones to the "real" content in raids. 5-man (and, ideally, smaller group) content needs to be complex, challenging, involved, and interesting, not just a staging area for other content which requires a playstyle that some people do not enjoy.

I understand that, and that is why there will be about a dozen 5 person dungeons, some for leveling, some for max level and then heroics of all of them on top of that. The zones will be stuffed full of lots of quests too.

Bornakk

#403 - July 1, 2008, 5:56 p.m.

Q u o t e:
We're not asking for a loot hallway that takes five hours, we're asking for an immerisve, non-linear dungeon, that is more than a giant featureless hallway filled with bosses waiting to die.

And we want to accomplish this while also having the dungeons completable in a friendly amount of time.