[Feedback] Subtlety Rogue

#1 - Jan. 28, 2016, 9:30 p.m.

General Impression
The best word I can find to describe current Subtlety - BASIC. It feels like I am not 110 level rogue with all spells unlocked and full of tools. I am level 10 rogue that just picked its specialization. There are new cool things to discover down the line. Except there are none and spec is extremly underwhelming.
It's missing 2 key parts that make a good spec - proactive aspect and reactive. Subtlety right now is very methodical - build combo points with 2 builders(but they are essentially one), keep Nightblade on a target, use Eviscerate. And nothing is there to interrupt that simple set of rules: no planning required, no procs. We don't even need to pay attention to Shadow Dance - builder just changes itself on the bar and it offers no interaction. Just press that button again and proceed to next step.
Our DPS "toolkit" consist of Vanish, that simply allow us to use Opener again, and Shadow Blades. That cooldown, again, offers no interaction. It just speeds-up rotation and that is it! Compare that to old Shadow Dance/Vanish that allowed us to use hard-hitting Ambush which in turn placed Find Weakness debuff. Min-maxing potential, preparation by energy pooling to utlize cooldowns more efficiently, debuff that actually changes how we play because it is better to put as much damage as possible before Find Weakness fades. That PROACTIVE part is quite important.
On the proc side - again, Legion Subtlety has nothing to offer. Sure, Shadow Techniques are there. But what does it change? We just go through our "rotation" faster. 5 combo points -> use Finisher. It doesn't really matter how we got those combo points. But WoD's version of Sub has Sinister Calling. And it breaks that methodical flow. Planning becomes harder, unpredictable. Every time player plans proc can change everything and now they have to REACT by adjusting said plan. That sythesis of two aspects makes WoDs Sub so good and lack of both parts make Legion Sub boring.

Artifact Weapon
Unfinished and strange. Active trait that Subtlety gets is just weird. It just deals damage and slows. What is the purpose of that ability? It has exatly zero interactions with class abilities, does not even generate combo points. Just nothing.
Rest of the tree are passives. Even major nodes are passives. Two of the simply spawn clones and does some damage. Maybe they even generate combo points. But player has no control over them and they add nothing. Animations at best. Finality has some potential, on paper. But then again our rotation being so methodical and straighforward turns that node into additional damage and nothing else.

Talents
Tier 15:
Master of Subtlety - Oh finally something to play with. And I have tried and got nearly 100% buff uptime even without working Shadow Techniques. Simple math - in 6 seconds Opener would give us 1 combo points, 3 more from Enveloping Shadows and then we simply need proc or Backstab to start cycle again. Subtlety goes from Finisher to Finisher too fast for that talent.
Weaponmaster - Proc that we won't even notice because we have passive combo point generation from auto-attacks. Boring.
Gloomblade - Positional requirement were deeemed as unfun but not for Subtlety Rogues it seems. Why it is not a baseline? Why do we sacrifice gameplay for fantasy?

Tier 30:
Nighstalker - No interaction.
Subterfuge - Right now it does not work with Shadow Dance and I doubt that talents will be there next Subtlety update.
Shadow Focus - No interaction.

Tier 45:
Deeper Strategem - I honestly believe this talent will go away. Our Finishers are net energy positive and give us a chance to reposition. I can imagine no scenario when player would want to use LESS finishers.
Anticipation/Vigor - Fine talents, Anticipation might be too good to pass due to Shadow Techniques unpredictability.

Tier 60:
I think this row is just fine.

Tier 75:
Strike From The Shadows - Insert Stun into our methodical gameplay. No control over core rotation -> no control over that stun.
Prey on the Weak/Tangled Shadows - Looks fine.

Celestalon

Game Designer

#42 - Feb. 3, 2016, 2:57 a.m.

The point of alpha testing has always been to test and get feedback. That's especially valuable and needed on ideas that are hard to test internally, and ones that need to be experienced to judge.

As such, we sometimes will go forward with testing something that people respond negatively to on paper, to see if that response remains the same once it's actually been tried. That can be concerning, and feel like we're not listening or caring about your feedback, but it couldn't be any further from the truth. We hear you, loud and clear.

The idea of a Rogue that got to do the full Opener-Builder-Finisher-Vanish cycle repeatedly was an extremely compelling fantasy to us. But it also was a scary one, from a balance point of view. Because of that, we were quite timid about it, reducing the stealth to not be actual stealth, taking away more CC to compensate for the potential of many Cheap Shots, initially taking away Shadowstep to compensate for incredible mobility potential of Shadowstrike, and felt tentatively OK with the reduced flexibility of the new Shadow Dance due to its sheer uptime. Additionally, there were some bugs and tuning issues in the currently live alpha build that make Subtlety seem worse than it is, such as Nightblade doing less damage than Eviscerate, which we'll get fixed.

Feedback has been clear. The core issue is that the Opener-Builder-Finisher-Vanish cycle doesn't feel distinct or special; Shadowstrike feels remarkably like Backstab and it's easy to not even feel a difference. The upside isn't there, and the downsides are many and strong. And, the gameplay is not engaging enough overall.

So, a future alpha build (not sure yet if it'll be the next one, or the one after that) will have significant changes to Subtlety. It'll include things like Shadow Dance returning to being an active ability, the addition of a new opener, and the return of some more CC. Stay tuned for full details when the build is ready.

Thanks for all your constructive feedback, and we look forward to reading more of it when you are able to try the next version.

Celestalon

Game Designer

#49 - Feb. 3, 2016, 5:07 a.m.

02/02/2016 08:07 PMPosted by Rfeann
Yeah. Angsty moments aside, this feels like a pretty nice victory for the alpha testing process as a whole. This was the right time to test a major spec-gameplay change like this, and the quality of player feedback in this forum (as well as a couple of threads in other public venues) was high. Personally I much prefer having had a chance to playtest a different Sub design in this sandbox over only seeing and reacting theoretical changes on paper. And I think it's helpful that everybody, both playtesters and onlookers alike, got to see that testing and feedback play out.

I think this is a great sentiment, and I hope it spreads. Pre-release (alpha/beta/PTR) is the perfect place for us to experiment with uncertain changes, and it works best when players trust in that process. This should be seen as an example of a successful testing process, not a 'victory of rogues over designers'. We *all* win by trying out new things, even if those tests produce less than favorable results. If we never try out wild or scary changes, the game never evolves into something much greater or more exciting. I hope this helps players see that there is wisdom in responding to concerning-sounding changes, not with vitriol and doomsaying, but rather with testing, evaluating, and giving constructive feedback. Thanks to all who have done so.

Celestalon

Game Designer

#90 - Feb. 23, 2016, 5:18 p.m.

Discussion Prompt:

Currently, Subtlety can AoE through multi-dotting Nightblade. Obviously, this has some major downsides compared to traditional AoEs (namely, it requires more effort targeting enemies, has significant rampup when there are significant target counts, and takes a long time to play out all of its damage). It does have some upside (namely, in a situation suited for it, say 3-5 targets that last 20-30sec, its performance is relatively high, or at least will be with tuning).

However, it also has another upside, in that when there are multiple targets around, but you mostly care about damage on a single target, you can funnel all of those tons of extra combo points into the primary target, skyrocketing *relevant* damage. With people organizing roles to maximize overall performance, you can do things like "You three fully-AoEing will be enough to kill the adds in time, so the Subtlety Rogue can maximize boss DPS." and end up ahead.

Over the course of a raid tier, this will occasionally be above average, but not usually. We'd certainly argue that the current situation is more interesting than just having an "AoE Eviscerate" finisher, and there's always going to be some variance in AoE performance between specs on any given fight. The question is: Is it too much performance difference in the typical situation, to be acceptable? We'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Celestalon

Game Designer

#94 - Feb. 23, 2016, 6:07 p.m.

The extra combo points are from using Shuriken Storm as your builder when there are additional targets around. Combo Points are *extremely* valuable to Subtlety, what with strong finishers and more Shadow Dances.

Kaivax

Community Manager

#114 - Feb. 26, 2016, 7:39 p.m.

Locking this thread.

Please continue to discuss this spec in our new Legion Class Feedback forum.

Thank you!