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Regional Flag5.4 Holy Paladin Opinions, Feedback and IdeasSource
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Jmaximus
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#1 - 2013/06/21 12:34:00 AM
Selfless Healer
In my opinion Selfless Healer has always been an inferior option compared to it's counterparts when taken by a Holy Paladin for one main reason.
Being forced to use a gcd once every 5 or so seconds that doesn't actually do any healing (what I'm trying to do in the first place) isn't worth it. Blizzard almost made a change to make it build stacks with judgement and holy shock, and while that would have been nice, it would have been a little too good. Make judgement worth while to use as holy. To make it worthwhile, as often as it comes off cd it needs to be useable on allies and heal them. Also give it some kind of forced proc or additional incentive to use it each time it's available such as one of the following; increase their next direct heal received from the paladin, or grant a 5 second temporary beacon of light effect or something, make it a dependable way to force an Infusion of Light Proc, make it grant one holy power, maybe give back 200% of the mana, make it apply a small stackable hot on allies while seal of insight is enabled similar to how seal of truth applies a dot to enemies that it took to cast it . In other words, make judgement useful to a healer for holy. Judgement doesn't help holy right now... at all. In fact it hurts. It takes mana away. We don't want that. It demands something from a healer that they don't want to do in the first place. The only reason holy paladins got used to enjoy judging back in cataclysm and Wrath was because it granted mana. You got used to it. But when the mana return mechanic was taken away, then that effect ended. Make judgement a part of the holy paladin healer tool kit if you wish selfless healer to be taken by holy paladins.

Sanctified Wrath
It's nice to see Sanctified Wrath getting some love but the main reason any holy paladin worth their salt doesn't take it, is because 30 seconds every 3 minutes isn't a lot compared to Holy Avenger and that it only works with holy shock (single target healing and daybreak) where holy avenger and divine purpose enhance single target as well as all multiple target healing options that raid healers need. If Sanctified wrath increased the crit chance on Holy Radiance and Daybreak then I may it take it, but even then I would hesitate b/c it's still only available for 30 seconds every 3 min. It's just too long of a wait where I'm stuck without it. Maybe change sanctified wrath instead of increasing it's duration for 30 seconds, instead reduce it's cd somehow so it's available more often so it's useable more in dire situations like Holy Avenger is.

Eternal Flame
Eternal Flame seems really out of place. I think the reason it's taken so often by holy paladins is because a dependable "when you need on who you need it" heal over time spell is a part of the healer toolkit that all healers need. Every healer has a hot that they can put on multiple people. To not choose that limits your options for healing multiple people. My proposal is do two things.
a. Make it baseline for holy only so that you no longer have to try it make it be 3 different things for 3 different specs.
b. Change it so that it is not attached to Word of Glory but instead it's own hot and have it heal for how much it does now. It'll still cost holy power as it currently does, heal for between 30% and 50% more than Word of Glory does, just over a longer amount of time. Maybe compress it into a 20 second duration to make the heal seem like it heals for slightly more. This is this game's fourth expansion. Isn't it about time that Holy Paladins who are legitimate raid healers got a baseline heal over time that isn't restricted somehow? I'm thinking the main problem with Eternal Flame healing for so much was the up front word of glory portion, hence blizzard's recent 5.4 ptr nerf on it and not the secondary hot portion.

Sacred Shield (5.2 Talent)
The reason that I never took Sacred Shield was for two reasons as a holy paladin
a. It was limited to one person so it was a terrible tool for raid healing, and even for tank healing you almost were never limited to "only heal this one tank and just it the entire fight.
b. It didn't scale with stats all that well. Just Spellpower and haste. Mastery and crit were useless for it (Mastery might have too good). I think it would have been a better idea instead of redesigning it, would be to either make the absorbs applied be crit-able, apply mastery, OR remove it's one person only limitation and make it cost about as much mana as divine light to make sure that the it isn't spammed too much.

Illuminated Healing.
Our mastery gets an overpowerd reputation mainly b/c of how much healing (absorbs in this case) it seems to do. I like the mechanic and how useful it is. I don't think it should unreasonable for mastery to be a healer's best stat some times. However it's not good when you consider how rewarding unintelligent healer play can be with it. All overheal still applies a shield. That shouldn't be the case for a mechanic that is applied by spells that can overheal. In my opinion Illuminated Healing should not apply an absorb on healing that is overheal. This will encourage holy paladins to try to avoid overhealing which is how a skilled healer is supposed to be in the first place. Of course this is a pretty big nerf and would most certainly reduce our hps by a lot. It would be nice to get a buff to Illuminated healing somewhere without encouraging unintelligent healing. Perhaps make Beacon of Light transfers that are not overheal apply a Illuminated Healing Shield, or perhaps raise the mastery coefficient back from 1.25 to it's former level at 1.5.
IH is a cool mechanic but it becomes too good when mindless overhealing can be rewarding.

Please post your thoughts on the state of holy. Please try to keep feedback constructive. This is not the place to flame, or complain.

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#2 - 2013/06/21 01:11:00 AM
Hi there Jmax, I'm here with more information from our developers to provide more context behind some of the recent changes to Holy Paladins on the 5.4 PTR.

Intent behind the Eternal Flame change

We’ve made some changes to Eternal Flame because we feel the talent was being overrepresented within the Holy Paladin population.

Our intent for was for Holy Paladins to pick Selfless Healer if they like to Judge, Eternal Flame if they like heal-over-time spells, and Sacred Shield if they liked damage absorb shields. As it worked out, most every Holy paladin chose Eternal Flame, and we don’t want every Holy paladin to be a heal-over-time machine. (That’s a niche best served by Restoration Druids and Holy Priests.)

We don’t think Holy Paladin’s healing throughput is too high overall (though we’ll gather more information from testing on the 5.4 PTR), so our intent is not to nerf but to reduce reliance on Eternal Flame. One of the biggest problem with Eternal Flame is the way it interacts with the Illuminated Healing mastery, which turns the heal-over-time spell into a potent shield as well. If needed, we will compensate by buffing healing elsewhere.

Our plans for now, are to revert the nerf that was done to the initial healing component of Eternal Flame, but we are unlikely to change the Illuminated Healing back to the way it was.

Sacred Shield

Regarding Sacred Shield, we tried giving the talent as a baseline ability to Protection, but we’re unhappy with that experiment and are likely to revert the change. We agree that the current (old) version of Sacred Shield is more attractive to Holy than the (new) version. We also would likely have to nerf Protection to compensate for getting Holy Shield in addition to another talent. Overall, we think the current (old) version of Sacred Shield is a better design. Perhaps we can still make Sacred Shield more attractive for Holy and Retribution, and make the other two talents (Selfless Healer, Eternal Flame) more attractive to Protection.

Our goal

We understand that Selfless Healer requires a certain playstyle that not every Holy paladin will find attractive. So we want to make Eternal Flame and Sacred Shield feel like viable talent choices as well.

Mastery not benefiting from Execution Sentence or Light’s Hammer isn’t intended and probably just got caught in the change to make Eternal Flame’s heal-over-time not benefit with mastery. We will correct that.

Remember, at this early stage in the PTR, our designers’ focus are on implementation changes (mechanics) first, and tuning changes (numbers) later. Your feedback at this stage will be more helpful to be focusing on the mechanics (e.g. “I liked using hots” or “I like to Judge and wish I could use Selfless Healer more”) and less on “OMG 30% nerf.”

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#82 - 2013/06/21 05:27:00 PM
Intent behind the Eternal Flame change

We don’t think Holy Paladin’s healing throughput is too high overall (though we’ll gather more information from testing on the 5.4 PTR), so our intent is not to nerf but to reduce reliance on Eternal Flame.


..? No offense, but I can't tell if you're saying this with a straight face or not.

Fact: Virtually every single even semi-serious raiding Holy Paladin takes Eternal Flame.
Fact: This nerf alone lowers our HPS (with that style of healing) by a staggering 30-40% (math done by Aladya of Method, if you're wondering).

Fact: This is a colossal nerf - why would you come out and say your intent is not to nerf? There's no counterbalancing buff, there's no talent that's even remotely more attractive to compensate.

Fact: Your intent was to nerf, and you did it. If that's your goal, fair enough. No point sugar-coating it with blatant falsities though, my friend.

At the end of the section we stated that we're reverting the change to the initial healing component of Eternal Flame while keeping the change to how it interacts with mastery. We are exploring ways of making the other talent choices more attractive.

06/20/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Rygarius
Our plans for now, are to revert the nerf that was done to the initial healing component of Eternal Flame, but we are unlikely to change the Illuminated Healing back to the way it was.

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#499 - 2013/07/09 10:59:00 PM
I just posted some info for Protection in another thread (link) but wanted to make sure we got the message across to Holy as well.

We’ve gotten a lot of feedback from the Holy community that there’s too much of a difference between fights where you’re allowed to stand in melee and fights where you cannot. Seal of Insight is a large part of that problem. By removing the mana gains from SoI, we can balance Holy’s mana appropriately. We don’t think the overall impact will be too large, but just to be sure, we’re planning to buff Divine Plea up to 15% for slightly stronger mana-on-demand.

As I mentioned in the other thread, the Glyph of the Battle Healer changes are largely due to how exceedingly powerful the glyph has become for Protection tanks. We do think it will still be useful in some situations, but we also recognize that many Paladins simply like the idea of healing through melee attacks, and that’s something we may explore more fully in the future. If we do, however, it will most likely not be through a glyph.

In regards to the more general concerns about Holy throughput, we do still plan to buff Holy elsewhere to make up for the changes to Eternal Flame. We’re still discussing exactly what those changes will be (which is why you haven’t seen them yet), but to give a bit of insight, we’re not very likely to buff spells like Beacon of Light or Holy Radiance. When we do make changes, they’ll probably be to spells like Flash of Light, Divine Light, Light of Dawn, and Guardian of Ancient Kings.

Again, please keep in mind that the PTR is a development environment, which quite often means you’ll see incomplete parts of overall changes as work continues. We really appreciate constructive and precise feedback about your concerns – letting us know exactly what is or isn’t working is a lot more effective than hyperbole. Thanks!

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#516 - 2013/07/10 12:12:00 AM
For clarification: as I said, we're still discussing exactly how to compensate for the Eternal Flame change. The handful of spells I listed were just possibilities.

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#519 - 2013/07/10 12:28:00 AM
07/09/2013 05:19 PMPosted by Cyanidê
Again, please keep in mind that the PTR is a development environment, which quite often means you’ll see incomplete parts of overall changes as work continues. We really appreciate constructive and precise feedback about your concerns – letting us know exactly what is or isn’t working is a lot more effective than hyperbole. Thanks!


There's plenty of feedback regarding the current state of affairs. We don't have a whole lot of new stuff to test; what more do you want from us? Give us the changes have been talking about for I don't know how long, THEN come here and demand quality feedback.


It's as much a request for quality feedback (there are always more players who can weigh in, after all) as it is for less clutter. There are plenty of good posts, for sure, and we're extremely grateful for all of those. It just gets harder and harder to find the good posts when they're sandwiched in between a whole bunch of ranting.

It's way easier for us to hear your concerns when you're not shouting over top of each other :)

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#625 - 2013/07/11 10:11:00 PM
GC Tweet (https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/355422149588164609):

"Going to try DP scaling with Spirit. GoAK with AE heals. Maybe buff to WoG, EF, LoD."

Super glad that you guys are going to try Divine Plea scaling with spirit, as every other healer has and I'm quite glad that we no longer have to worry about balancing our regen around SoI mana procs.

Not sure what is meant by "GoAK with AE heals" though? But I'm feeling a bit more optimistic.

For some clarification on this, here's the patch notes for Divine Plea and Holy's Guardian of Ancient Kings in the next PTR build:

  • Guardian of the Ancient Kings (Holy version) has been redesigned. The ability is no longer limited to the next 5 single-target heals, and deals additional healing based on all healing spells cast by the Paladin for its duration. The ability also increases the Paladin's haste by 10% while it's active. However, the duration of the ability has been reduced to 15 seconds (down from 30 seconds).
  • Divine Plea no longer reduces the amount of healing done by 50%, and now restores 135% of the Paladin's Spirit as mana every 3 seconds for 9 seconds. The total amount of mana restored will always be at least 12% of the Paladin's total mana.


As per usual, anything is subject to change :)

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#924 - 2013/07/24 06:22:00 PM
Quick clarification: Illumiinated Healing will now work with non-Eternal Flame periodic effects (e.g. Stay of Execution). Eternal Flame's periodic effect will continue to not trigger Illuminated Healing.

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#934 - 2013/07/24 06:55:00 PM
07/24/2013 11:35 AMPosted by Lucydin
Quick clarification: Illumiinated Healing will now work with non-Eternal Flame periodic effects (e.g. Stay of Execution). Eternal Flame's periodic effect will continue to not trigger Illuminated Healing.


Can you explain why changes to monk's mana is "too big to tackle in a patch" but completely changing the way holy paladins play is fine?


We would have had to overhaul the entire Mistweaver spec to allow them to even function in 5.4. The handful of changes to Holy (most notably Seal of Insight and Eternal Flame), while they do cause an adjustment in playstyle, are significantly easier to properly account for in terms of actual development time. It's also worth mentioning that we got started on the Paladin changes weeks ago.

In short, we're capable of making these changes to Holy without holding the entire patch up. We couldn't do that with Mistweaver.

We're happy with where Paladin mechanics are sitting on the PTR. We'll be focusing hard on getting the numbers where they need to be to allow those mechanics to work very soon. I know it's frustrating to wait, but we're getting there :)