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Regional FlagConsolidated KJC feedback thread, pt 3 (Show MVP Posts)Source
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#1 - 2013/06/13 09:01:00 PM
NOTE: I would like to remind every poster here to be civil. We've done an excellent job on keeping the peace in this thread and have gotten SimC posters, popular Lock poster, many Twitter responses, and apparently lots of Blue attention. I would like to emphasize to, while not putting the rage away, not let yourself get carried away and post in a way that pushes the hope of reversal farther away. We can still show the devs that they're desperately, horrifyingly wrong about trying to implement this change, but we can do that with class.

"Drastic and unexpected changes that impact negatively on parts of the player base is something we should try to avoid as much as possible."
~ http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7616602806?page=2#26

A continuation of the old thread.

Original post here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9280508340?page=1
Second thread here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9280358645?page=1
Fourth thread here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9280998834
(Third thread was locked, then re-opened and the fourth thread locked)

Currently Blizzard's position is to support the nerf on Warlocks with very little fundamental backing besides that "it seems too good".

Currently Holinka has been quoted for supporting the very same mechanics for Hunters for no other reason as it being a "niche", disregarding the fact that we are in an extremely similar situation.
~ https://twitter.com/holinka/status/344942951031504896

As of now the class has very little mechanics to deal with the problems removing passive KJC will cause, and the revamped version will not change this situation as it will not be chosen most of the time. It leaves Warlocks with less mobility than Spriests or Boomkins, and leaves our 90 tier worse than Mages to the point where we can actually not select a talent and feel nearly no difference.

General — Does granting range players the ability to retain more and more damage on the move (as illustrated by the upcoming Lightning Bolt changes in 5.3) make it harder and harder to design encounters where melee DPS are not trailing behind?

Traditionally, the melee advantage was being able to do damage while moving, but now a lot of ranged are also good at movement. We could certainly go back in and prune a lot of cast-on-the-move and instant spells from casters, but on the other hand we know players think those abilities are fun and you can even argue that having to stand and “turret” as a combat mechanic feels a little dated. There is also a continuum here: casting Lightning Bolt while moving isn’t a big balance problem, but something like passive Kil’jaeden’s Cunning might be.

Rather than making casters terrible at moving, we’d rather develop a niche that melee are really good at. For example, we could emphasize that melee are really good at cleaving multiple targets, or they could be more survivable, or both. We are going to explore these ideas more.

~ http://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/2178-patch-53-interview-with-the-wow-design-team/

Ghostcrawler has been actively defending the change on his Twitter, so I advise you to look there for more follow ups to his/Blizzards position. Generally, no factual reason has been presented as to why the team considers it a different situation for Hunters. Their reasoning being that they want to find Hunter's a niche, and expect allowing us to have mobility is homogenization (ironically, changing us to have mobility like every other caster seems more like homogenization).

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#135 - 2013/06/13 11:39:00 PM
The simple fact is that the constant, passive ability to perform a complete DPS rotation while moving was never intended to be a core feature of the Warlock class. Those who remember the early days of Patch 5.0 will recall that, initially, Kil’Jaeden’s Cunning actually increased cast time whenever it was triggered. In those days, that extra cast time made the talent so unattractive that very few players actually took it. We decided to try it as only a snare instead, but that has had the opposite effect: in Patch 5.3, virtually all Affliction Warlocks are using Kil’Jaeden’s Cunning. Remember, we want talents to be meaningful choices. If one talent is far and away superior to its neighbors, there’s a problem. There were also some very strange side effects (such as the ability to cast something like Fear while ducking in and out of line of sight).

Now, as I mentioned, the ability to always cast on the move wasn’t intended as a core Warlock feature (otherwise, it wouldn’t have been a talent). However, that doesn’t mean we want Warlock DPS to plummet every time there’s a fire on the ground. One thing that may have gone under the radar is the fact that the new version of KJC is not on the global cooldown, and can be cast while another cast is already in process. So, for example, you won’t have to interrupt a Chaos Bolt to activate KJC should you need to react to something in a hurry.

Furthermore, it’s a change that we’re certainly going to balance around. Remember, we’re very early in what is likely to be a lengthy PTR cycle. There’s plenty of time to tweak and tinker with it. In fact, a recent change made internally allows Haunt to be cast while moving by default. The goal is most certainly not that Warlocks lose out on a ton of DPS or lose viability in raid encounters. We do encourage you to hop on the PTR, experiment with it, and tell us what think once you’ve gotten some hands-on time!

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#235 - 2013/06/14 12:34:00 AM
06/13/2013 05:27 PMPosted by Norpseldro
I dont know if this is an issue with implementation on the PTR or bad information, I tried the new KJC on the ptr and it was on the GCD and it did interrupt a current spell cast.


If it's acting that way on the PTR currently, it's just an outdated implementation of the spell. Again, we're very early in the PTR cycle.

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#2202 - 2013/06/18 12:34:00 AM
Got a few updates for you guys. Standard disclaimer applies that this is all still in early testing and subject to change.

Fel Flame has gotten a slight rework. It now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can always be cast while moving. Also, it no longer extends the duration of damage over time effects (and, as such, no longer causes them to lose their "snapshotted" stats) and has gotten a small damage buff. The intent here is that you should be able to use this to keep up some damage when you need to move, but you'll want to stick to your standard rotation otherwise.

Looking specifically at Affliction, we're lowering the bonus damage that Malefic Grasp provides and moving that damage over into Haunt and the DoT effects themselves to compensate. We still want Malefic Grasp to be your primary filler for single target DPS, but this will make it a bit less punishing when you can't afford to channel it (especially in PvP). Haunt will once again be interrupted by movement, in favor of the Fel Flame change.

There's been a couple adjustments to the level 90 talents as well. Both Kil'Jaeden's Cunning and Mannoroth's Fury have had their cooldowns and durations lowered to 60 and 10 seconds, respectively. Mannoroth's Fury now only applies to the core AoE damage spells (Seed of Corruption, Hellfire, Immolation Aura, and Rain of Fire), but increases their damage by 100% while active in addition to the range increase. Note that Rain of Fire is being changed to no longer generate enough Burning Embers to be worth using in a single target rotation (so, Destruction shouldn't feel forced into Mannoroth's Fury).

These should hopefully be hitting the PTR in the next build. Once again, please remember that we're very early in the 5.4 development process. Any or all of this may still change before the patch goes live.

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#2753 - 2013/06/18 08:44:00 PM
Ghostcrawler just gave another update via Twitter. Reposting it here to make sure you guys see it :)

We're going to try keeping Fel Flame as an instant, slightly buffed, with no DoT refeshing. Intent wasn't to nerf Fel Flame on top of nerfing Kil'Jaeden's Cunning. As long as locks don't become backpedaling Fel Flame spamming machines, we think this change should work.

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#3238 - 2013/06/19 11:21:00 PM
I've just posted a new thread with some new info: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9309301938

Please continue the discussion there. Thanks!