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Regional FlagTime for a new lootsystem?Source
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Gratzner
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#1 - 2013/04/14 10:15:00 PM
This topic came to me during the last couple of days after I, once again, completed an LFR with no loot besides gold.

I used to raid on an active basis and I was sort of happy with that, but as I've grown (sadly) time have become more precious and rare so raiding for me now days is simply not possible, at least not on the level I wish to raid, so I have to satisfy myself with LFR's and the occasional normal raid If anyone is willing to take on a guy with minimal experience.
My guild is a PvP guild while I'm a PvE player myself so there isn't much raiding happening there unfortunately.

Anyway... moving on to my thoughts.

The loot-system... is not very good IMO. This random loot thing simply.... well it sucks.
Having a system that... eventually.... MIGHT.... drop an item for you doesn't sound very good to me and I'm not sure why I have put up with it for so long. Granted there aren't any real options but I have never said a word about it, besides in the occasional thread here on the forums.

So.... PvE... random drop, raid and hope for the frigging best. You can raid for years and years and still not get the item that you actually need, i.e. a weapon upgrade. Do LFR over and over again and hope for it to drop. It doesn't drop and then you have the next tier out.. so you start doing the new instances and dungeons and hope for a new weapon and it still doesn't drop. You are well deserving of a new weapon after doing the same boss 'bout 20 times but you still don't have a weapon and now the next patch is lurking around the corner.
I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.

Meanwhile... PvP have a different kind of system, but it's a fair system. Do PvP... and you can get the gear you need. As long as you actually do PvP.

Why not have something similar for PvE? Why not? I know there are valor and justice points but they don't cover everything. Weapons would be a good example.
It's quite stupid that you need to kill one boss, maybe 20 times, for one item, that might drop. That might drop.
To finish one instance 20 times for a full new set of ilvl xxx, I can agree with. But one boss 20 times? For one item? No.

The system could be something like this... you complete 1 instance and you can choose what item you want, or complete it twice? Or like it is today you are still awarded with valor points.. but for the valor points you can buy all kinds of gear... LIKE WEAPONS.

Except for last week i've done the LFR's looking for a new weapon since I don't know and I'm still using a dungeon weapon, ilvl 463.

LFR's doesn't have gear requirements as such but it still aint funny to use a ilvl 463 item when the current LFR ilvl are 502.
It affects you when in raids and while LFR's might not have harsh requirements about gear, eventually you will fall behind and when you eventually do find a normal raid your gear is too poor and you have no idea when, or even if you will ever be able to upgrade that weapon piece.

Anyway this is just a thought, that maybe it's time for a change, just maybe, and I would like to know how other people feel about the current system itself and what sort of other system they would like to see instead of the RNG one.

Take it easy now

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#34 - 2013/04/15 03:58:00 PM
14/04/2013 23:15Posted by Gratzner
Why not have something similar for PvE? Why not? I know there are valor and justice points but they don't cover everything. Weapons would be a good example.


Just my opinion, since I feel this is an interesting topic to talk about...
One of the aspects that makes raiding (and PVE) so exciting is the fact you don't know what will drop and when. It's not the first time I find myself in a position where I'm chasing a particular drop and it just keeps evading me *forever*. It is, indeed, rather frustrating when you consider it from the perspective of the person that wants to finally get that new shield or bracers or whichever.

On the other hand, though, and this is where I think it'd make PVE less attractive is that, if you can plan for certain which upgrades you'll be getting, and when, then, there might not be enough reason to progress past certain bosses. Say, your guild has a hell of a time trying to kill Megaera. Under such a system, you'd still be rewarded with a Tier 15 helm token after some time, despite that one dropping only from the Twin Consorts. And therefore, losing part of the incentive to keep pushing your raid progress to that boss as well as getting rewarded just for showing up on the instance and doing some progress.

Also, the Valor Point items do ensure you'll be able to get items within a reasonable timeframe, of course, you might argue you'd like to get gear faster, but the fact is that you can control to some extent when you'll get something.

Putting those things into perspective, sure, weapons may feel harder to attain since you can't get them through Valor Points, but, if you could carefully plan item by item when and how you'll get each upgrade, wouldn't that remove that excitement of finally getting the item you've been chasing for so long?

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#85 - 2013/04/16 01:01:00 PM
no offence mate, but this is the sort of answer we would expect from a blizzard employee.
the OP was spot on in everything he said, but it seems you came out with a typical generic blizzard answer where by you dismiss his argument of weapons from valor points with the argument of the 'excitement' of waiting for said weapon to drop. have you ever played this game? please explain where the excitement is of going through raid after raid & the item (weapon in this case), just never drops? oh look, another raid & yet again nothing drops...i can hardly contain myself until next week when i get yet another chance to try my luck. oh the excitement of it all. put in that context, would you really think its enjoyable to go through yet another LFR only to find it doesnt drop again?


Oh, come on, don't treat blues (nor anyone else working here for that matter) as "Generic Blizzard Employee #7654". That was my opinion. It is what I think, and there's no reason why you should agree with me, that's not only just fine, it's actually good. Disagreement, if constructive, creates discussions, and good discussions are always profitable one way or the other.

Now talking about weapons... how often has it really occurred to any of you that you've never had a weapon drop for an entire tier? Personally I've never been in that position. Have I gotten my weapon late in a tier? Yes. Have I gotten it soon after a tier had launched? Yes. That's RNG. I'd wager if most people could plan their upgrades, weapons might be on the number one spot (depending on the class, of course).

But above all that, the underlying question isn't just convenience, but rather it branches into two things:
-Why do we want to get rid of RNG? Because we can't control drops? Why is that negative if you're having fun playing the game? If someone out there wants to get all the items as soon as possible so he/she can stop playing the game as soon as possible, then maybe the proper question should be... are you having fun in WoW? Because the moment we start thinking on the quickest way to get everything done and then not come back until a new patch has been released might be a sign of needing some time to disconnect from the game.

-Once you control your drops, what's next? removing RNG from quests? from things like which artifact you'll get next on Archaeology or which jewel pattern you'll learn on that next research?

RNG does have a positive aspect for the game. Sure, it makes it unconvenient when we're trying to control everything, but I believe it ultimately falls back to the "having fun" aspect of all this. Would you have fun in a game where you can control everything? For an extended period of time?

EDIT: Typo fixed

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#107 - 2013/04/16 04:04:00 PM
No RNG there, but hey, I guess there's a reason companies pay you a pre-determined sum of money each month rather than by handing you an random item you may or may not find use for. I like my job a lot and having a random reward system wouldn't make it more fun.


But this is a game, not a job. It should be fun, if it feels like just an obligation... what's the point? I mean, from what some of you are expressing, it sounds like you feel obligated to play and the loot is forcing you to play longer than you'd like. Isn't that an odd sentiment to have?

A table of gear comes out, where you can CHOOSE wether you want the tanking gloves(which you have) or the tanking shoulders (which is whole new and exciting!) Then you don't have a chance of getting a set of fine armor which you already have. I've tried this too many times. It comes up on my bonus roll and i get all excited until i see it's the same damn boot or shoulder that i already have gotten 3 times!

Conclusion: It would be nice to actually choose the armor you want if you should be so lucky to finally get a loot (which is rare these days LFR). Don't hate, this was just a crazy yet awesome (in my opinion) idea that fell into my little mind! ;)


But we don't have just LFR, there're normal and Heroic raids. A player running LFR and Normal/Heroic using such a system could probably pick the perfect gear for himself quite quickly. One thing is frustration with not getting loot on the Raid Finder (which is something that may be alleviated in 5.3) and a different thing to have a system where you can basically cherry pick the gear you want to perfectly cover each slot. It takes a lot of that excitement I mentioned.

Players should get loot for EVERY boss they kill. It's simple as that. You go, you kill, you loot. There can't be nothing else, since the game is not about the lore, story or immersion anymore, but pew pew and lewt. Truth be told.


That's never been the case in the game.

If blizzard wants to change this, they should emphasise on the lore and story. Yes, there will be losses, but when the design revolves around killing LFR Tsulong (with THIS char) 20 ACTUAL times and never getting the bloody trinket he drops, I am sorry but this is just bull!@#$.

But there were other options, right? You could get other trinkets if the one from Tsulong just refused to drop (which in the other hand, you can safely say is bad luck after so many kills).

Nobody wants to take RNG away. And nobody talks about getting everything as fast as possible.
We want to see Progress in Raiding. Either in Raid-Progress or in IL/Loot.
All in good time is a different thing than "Well you will get that Item without alternative maybe never, thats RNG"

You are dismissing our valid Arguments far to easy!


I'm not dismissing arguments! In fact, if I wanted to dismiss them, I just wouldn't bother posting :)

It's just, we can't simply reduce it to "hey, we want progress in raiding". Sure, I bet that's a cool idea for many, but it has consequences on other aspects of the game, and that's what I find interesting, discussing those things. If we reduced everything to the perspective that makes our arguments valid, we would probably just limit ourselves to post either "hey, this is cool, we'll pass it along and see what the developers say" or "hey, sorry but the developers are not considering this". Is that the kind of interaction you'd like from the blues? I'm genuinely curious.

I vote Dratzal for noob of the day.

He completely missed the point and may as well stood in fire.

My DK friend still has no sha touched weapon and he's using the weapon from msv. I dont have my sha touched weapon either, but at least I have the healing mace from MSV upgraded. It's stupid how easy it is to obtain the sha touched gem but getting the weapon simply wont happen.

I have never gotten my weapon from toes.

The drop rate for weapons needs to be increased then people wouldn't be so upset on the matter.

Ah! But he's using a weapon from that tier!

Of course, not the one he wanted, but one from it. You can say it felt getting sha touched weapons was too hard which is a valid argument, but it doesn't make my point any less valid, he did get an upgrade. So perhaps the thing isn't just RNG or RNG not, and it's more about... are the items and the effort required to get to them truly rewarding? Let's say Jin'rokh dropped the best weapons of this tier. And only weapons. Would it be as satisfying to finally get them as if they dropped only from Lei Shen?

I'm not sure you understand where I'm trying to get to. I think discussions like this (about loot systems in wow) are indeed interesting, and I'm 100% sure they provide useful feedback to the developers. It doesn't mean they'll necessarily implement anything of what you've mentioned here, but it'll make them have a better perspective of what the community thinks about this and might even give them a few ideas of their own on how to tackle those things they might also perceive as issues.

In short, don't focus too much on if I'm rebating your arguments. That's not the point of my posts, in the end it isn't me who you need to convince of anything and there's no gain in happily sitting down and saying "sure, this is all good!". If I'm asking something it's not to be dismissive, just to give more flesh to the discussion and allow more people to chime in with their thoughts. The more (ideas and perspectives), the merrier, because that's what makes these things so interesting :-)

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#211 - 2013/04/17 02:00:00 PM
It's a losing battle because he doesn't understand what the OP is talking about.

Neither do you.

Next time read the post, and not just the title.


I do understand it. That's why I can bring other perspectives to try to enrich the discussion. I actually mentioned that yesterday on my Twitter account, there's little benefit for me to post "hey, this is a cool idea, +1!".

By doing that, I don't contribute anything to the discussion, I don't encourage others to participate and give their points of view and, finally, I'd actually be putting myself in a position where some players would probably just try to use such a post as a reason to lobby for a particular change. I'm not insane. Not yet.

16/04/2013 20:58Posted by Zaelid
The word "job" doesn't mean something negative to me. Your interpretation is almost exactly the opposite of what I tried to express. My job doesn't pay well but it presents me with diverse and challenging problems. There is no gating mechanism, so the rewards outside of a sense of accomplishments are of less importance. Sure, I need the salary, but if material rewards were important I would choose a different job.


Well, you can't really relate a game to a job, it's not an analogy that could work. But in any case, if you're at the current tier of content, there's no gating other than what your skill (as a group) allows you to do, since in most of the cases someone will be getting gear (the exception being 10 man groups where a boss drops 2 items of that one class that you don't have (which happens, and it's particularly bad when it happens on a first kill).

If you're catching up to current content, LFR has increased droprates on 5.0 raids, and the charms can be farmed easily in Isle of Thunder, so you should definitely be able to gear up quite fast (at least gear up to the point of being able to access ToT's Raid Finder).

They seem to claim that the system is for gearing up future raiders etc, but have a mate who been stuck for weeks on end now and not getting anything. So hopefully they will revise the whole system and come up with something better.


Doesn't your mate has items available from the Valor vendors? There're quite a few slots you can cover from it.

Why did you make it so difficult to get reputation with Shado-Pan Assault?
It takes long enough to gather the valor points needed for all items (8k valor points? thats 8 weeks... disgusting).

But do you expect to have to use all those items? I don't know for others on this thread, but in my case, unless it's something useful for off-spec, I usually get only a couple items from the valor vendors, and everything else from the raid. On the other hand, depending how quickly your raid group clears content, 8 weeks might be around the time frame you'll need to clear Throne of Thunder, if not longer.

And, What about looting the same item 6 times?

It has always happened. We've seen complaints on the forums about that very prominently with tier tokens, for example (where you see the same token drop for weeks on end). It's part of the RNG system.

It's definitely a bad feeling when you get those bracers for the 5th time on Raid Finder, but that's part of how the system works. It's not meant to conveniently gear you up.

17/04/2013 09:54Posted by Gratzner
Furthermore I don't believe no one is happy or satisfied with looting the same item 5 times over if you are in need of another item.

Of course no one is (well, enchanters might be :P).

But the thing is, if you get a duplicate item, do you feel it should instead be replaced with another item that is useful for a slot that has to be upgraded yet? I understand the reasoning, sure, but that very same thing is what happens to raiders in normal and Heroic mode. And what usually happens there is that gear is either disenchanted or goes for off-spec to someone.

In any case, I believe there's one concern that many of you share, which is that you feel getting a new weapon is too difficult (at least it seems to be mentioned in this thread way more than everything else) and we'll definitely pass that feedback to the developers.