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Regional FlagThoughts about PVP!Source
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Kegroll
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#1 - 2013/02/13 06:09:00 PM
You know, I got to thinking about all the issues within PVP and what Blizzard is trying to do in ways of balancing the playing field.

With the upcoming changes in patch 5.2 with regards to conquest points, I don’t feel as though that is the way to go. I can understand that Blizzard seems to be trying to give everyone the opportunity to get thier gear by allowing points to be giving whether you win or lose. However, I feel that a different approach should be taken.

Currently - and has been for several years - its all about the gear and slim to none about the the actual player versus player. Its a who has the better gear will win attitude and there in is the issue for me at least, and Im sure for others as well.

I love PvP just as much as the next person that loves PvP. But to me, its not about the gear. Its about a fair fight, the ability to overcome your opponent with the skills you have and the tools given to you. You can have all the skill in the world and know how to use your abilities, but 9 times out of 10 it wouldnt matter because the one your fighting has far superior gear than you do. Either that, or god forbid, they have CC up the wazoo!

Max level PVP is honestly, in a crappy state. I actually prefer doing my PVP through the leveling process. This is where the gear has no real PVP stats and honestly, is more fair. Sure at certain levels like 60, 70, etc. you can obtain PVP gear, but the difference between that gear and instance, quest gear is marginal. You basically have two sets of gear. PVE and Honor PVP, not 3-4 sets as you do at max level which consists of PVE, Crafted PVP, Honor PVP and Conquest PVP.

I do like the change to removing the ability to upgrade gear however, and to me, that should have never been put in the game to begin with. Seems to me, the better option would to have been to decrease the point cost of PVP gear and/or invoking the ability to gain points as a quicker rate, much like what they are doing in 5.2.

I personally don’t see any reason for multiple sets of PVP gear. It should only be one set. Sure, you could argue that there is multiple sets of PVE gear, so why not PVP? To that, I answer that if many recall, PVP was never meant to be put in the game in the first place. In fact, if I remember right, there was a time that there was no PVP gear and you had to run what you brung.

Regardless, the fact remains that now, PVP is way more dependent on gear then the actual player and/or skill of the player. You cannot argue that there is no skill in PVP, because there really is. There is skill - to an extent - in PVE as well, but in PVP, the mob (player) your up against is not mapped to a specific path 100% of the time. You don’t know what your opponent is going to do in any given time. But in PVE, you do. You know what the NPC can do in relation to spells and abilities much like you do for PVP, however, unlike PVP, you also know at what point, percentage and time the NPC will do those spells and abilities.

I am not trying to invoke an argument between PVE and PVP players. Im merely giving my opinion and hope some good, constructive discussion can come out of this. I love both worlds of warcraft, PVE and PVP. There are many issues that need to be resolved on both sides of the fence so-to-speak. I prefer more randomness in PVE when it comes to boss kills. Sort of a AI you could say, where the boss is more random and you don’t know when they will use there abilities and have to adjust at a split second, like in PVP.

We, I feel, should move away from the dependency towards gear in PVP and focus more on the person that’s pushing the buttons. And yes, there is way too much CC and that defiantly needs to be addressed.

We all know that PVP will never be 100% balanced, it could never be. But perhaps without the dependency on gear and CC - or less of it - I feel that it could bring us closer to balance, only if even for a few percent towards that 100%.

I read countless posts here ranging from people loathing PVP, to loathing PVE and those loving either/or both. But within all those posts are two common factors, gear and CC that are mentioned more often. Ive read some downright inconceivable ways to "fix" PVP that just made me fall out my chair laughing to some very good and worthwhile ideas that just might work.

People can come up with fantastic ideas, but they do no good if they aren’t put to practice and "tried". Hence, PTR. It seems that PTR is basically only used to test out coming patches and expansions. Why isnt it used to put these great ideas that ARE out there to the test? See what works and what doesn’t? You will never know if it works or doesn’t without trying them. Numbers can tell allot, but it cant tell you everything. Numbers on a spreadsheet cant tell you if a player would use or wouldn’t use ability A or ability B at this time, or that time.

Anyway, I hope that any of you that reply to this post will be constructive. I hope that we can hear from both sides (PVE and PVP players) on what they think about PVP. What would they change? How would they change it and, why would they change it? And yes, you could also do the same and post about PVE as well.

Thanks for reading and have a great day and remember to have fun while playing!

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#5 - 2013/02/13 06:55:00 PM
02/13/2013 10:27 AMPosted by Mntindoo
While the gear grind has blown if you're late, really the new Conquest change coming in 5.2 with the "catch up" is just awesome.


Just a note: we'd love to implement the catch-up mechanic sooner, but it isn't planned to be ready before patch 5.3. There are some changes in 5.2 that will still help narrow the gear gap a bit, including better Honor gear, and Conquest Point armor you can purchase without first meeting a seasonal rating requirement. Conquest weapons will become available after hitting a 7,250 requirement for the season.

That said, it's likely that gear is here to stay. I've elaborated on this at length elsewhere, but it boils down to the fact that, even with gear differentials, World of Warcraft PvP can be very competitive. Gear and getting more powerful via gear, is a big part of World of Warcraft, and it isn't likely to be going away for the foreseeable future. That said, if you're into organized PvP and you want to do battle in an environment where everyone is operating with the same tier of gear, then you might want to keep an eye open for when the Tournament Realm begins again.

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#26 - 2013/02/13 09:13:00 PM
02/13/2013 11:51 AMPosted by Joosenjin
People DON'T PvP to collect gear. The dynamic combat against real human competitors provides the draw to play, and people only care about gear insomuch as you HAVE to have PvP gear to PvP with any significant success.


That's an awfully definitive statement, but I'm reasonably sure it isn't accurate. All the evidence points to the fact that a majority of players in general like being rewarded for their activities in game, including PvPers. Heck, as I mentioned in the previous lengthy discussion on this topic, the majority of modern pure competition games have borrowed elements from RPGs and implemented progression systems of one sort or another.

As I said earlier in this thread though, when the Tournament Realm returns, it'll be as close as you can reasonably get to a pure competition game in World of Warcraft PvP. It's a separate experience for a reason, though.

World of Warcraft is a progression game, and getting gear and becoming more powerful is absolutely integral to the experience. I conceptually get why there are players who want 'pure competition' in World of Warcraft. Many want it just on principle, while I suspect that others believe that they'd do better in PvP if it was in place. Still, the facts suggest that, barring significant gear disparities, knowledge and execution (skill) trumps gear. Also, in Rated PvP, the matchmaking system places teams up against roughly equivalent opponents, which somewhat mitigates the effects of gear in that context.

There are logistical and design issues at work here. It's really not as simple as simply saying "Here's your PvP suit. Go to town." If there's no PvP gear progression, then Raid gear begins outshining PvP gear and becomes the obvious choice. If the default PvP gear outshines Raid gear right off of the bat, then it becomes the obvious choice for entry level PvP, rendering those item rewards instantly obsolete. Our current design direction dictates that we don't want major, artificial divisions to exist between PvP and PvE. Your character should always be your character, and your gear is part of that package. While your current gear might not be optimal for a specific purpose, we want you to be able to take whatever you're wearing wherever you want to go (within reason, hence item level restrictions). For now, we strongly believe that arranging systems so that PvP gear only works in PvP and PvE gear only works in PvE would not feel good, nor be good for the game.

You do realize that in 5.3 "Tyrannical Gladiator’s gear can be purchased for Honor after 27,000 Conquest Points are earned for the season. (5.3)".
So you can look forward to more players queuing random with full PvP gear. Blizzard is so much in support of have gear imbalanced in random BG they are now encouraging geared players to rejoin the random BG system to earn offspec pvp gear.


I wrote that blog, so yes, I am aware. By the time that system goes in, the catch-up mechanic should be in place to make it easier for players joining PvP for the first time to get geared to a reasonable level. As others have noted, geared players do random battlegrounds for a variety of reasons even now, and that's not likely to stop. We wanted to provide those players with a reasonable way to experiment with different specs or stat loadouts. We are very interested in balancing the PvP system between easing new players in, while at the same time rewarding players for being invested.

I was wondering why the beyond was put into your "PvP Gear in 5.2 and Beyond" Draxxarri and now I see. Way to keep stringing us along with vague statements.


When writing that blog I tried to be as clear and specific as possible, by bulleting each upcoming feature and noting which patch that feature is expected to be a part of in parentheses. Might I ask what you found vague? The entire point of any blog we post is to illuminate, not obfuscate, so if something isn't clear I want to fix it.

As far as making the random Battleground experience better? That's something we're giving thought to, but I don't have anything specific to share for now. It is a challenge; even the best ideas can have significant potential pitfalls.

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#34 - 2013/02/13 09:42:00 PM
02/13/2013 01:32 PMPosted by Kyndranigar
This. Right here is the issue. People who "dabble" in Random BG's for some honor or PvP, or new people trying to PvP without a dedicated group for rated BGs/Arena will walk into a random queue, and get smoked by an opposing team in full Glad. How do you think they feel? "Oh well, they're so skilled. I guess I should step up my game" or "Wow, they have such better gear than I do. I don't want to sit through loss after loss until I have the honor/cponquest to get close. I'll just quit now." It sounds defeatist, and it is, but that's what a lot of people think.


It is a situation that we'd like to address. It's just not as easy or straightforward as it seems, but like I said, we have stuff on the table.

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#37 - 2013/02/13 10:02:00 PM
02/13/2013 01:55 PMPosted by Phlegeton
I would argue that they put those in place to artificially elongate the game's length/relevance to keep people playing longer more so than them being popular design elements amongst the players. Those systems also fit well into a game's micro transaction model (if it's free to play) because they know people will pay to unlock things if they can circumvent the progression treadmill. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's good or even healthy for the game/players.


That could be true. While I can't speak for anyone else, I'll freely admit that while I recognize the various gears that are probably turning beneath the surface, I still find those systems fun and engaging. After a good match I look forward to seeing what I've unlocked and adjusting my loadout accordingly.

Lengthened lifespan and real fun can go hand in hand. It's not necessarily some kind of trick.

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#69 - 2013/02/14 02:23:00 AM
02/13/2013 04:06 PMPosted by Bomdanil
If that were true then you wouldn't be artificially deflating the stats of PvP gear to prevent it from being used to gain entry level access to PvE content, as you plan to do in the next patch.


I'm not sure that's the case. You can potentially wear the PvP gear into the PvE content and still perform at a decent level (though meeting the required item level might be an issue without some supplementals). Regardless, it's still okay for that purpose, but not the best and most obvious choice--which is what we intended.

it's simple, fair, and balanced. and it CAN'T be that hard to design.


It's hard to believe how time intensive it is to design arenas and battlegrounds. You can't just make a box and slap new textures on it. You also have to make sure it's perfect in a multitude of tiny ways that don't apply to any other content in the game, and are largely invisible. Does this texture cause people to hang up for no reason? Is there a chance that someone could fall through the world if a perfect storm of x+y+z occurs? Are there weird line of sight things here? How does this decorative feature interact with everyone's class abilities? Is it even fun to play on? The list goes on and on, and battlegrounds are even "worse". For example, Warsong Gulch suffered from issues for years. We'd fix something, and new issues would appear. At one point we even took it out of the rotation so we could work on it. Even now, I'd hesitate to say that it's "perfect", despite all the hard work that's gone into it.

I do have a question for Arena competitors though: Do you really care what the arena looks like, outside of terrain features that supply an advantage or inflict a disadvantage on your team composition?

02/13/2013 03:39 PMPosted by Phlegeton
That's not to say that I think we should just be handed a set of gear once we decide to pvp. There should still be a set of gear you have to obtain, but I think one should be it. You have the crafted stuff if you want to have something just walking into bg's, and then you get your main set for the season from honor. After that, conquest points can be used to get aesthetic items that differentiate you such as transmog gear, titles, mounts, tabards, etc.


I believe I covered this in a prior post in this thread. While I personally think that they're cool for a lot of reasons, aesthetic only rewards aren't really the best option, because there are power increasing rewards being handed out in PvE that would quickly over-shadow PvP gear if there was no power progression. I'll quote what I wrote above, because I think it's still relevant to this point:

"There are logistical and design issues at work here. It's really not as simple as simply saying "Here's your PvP suit. Go to town." If there's no PvP gear progression, then Raid gear begins outshining PvP gear and becomes the obvious choice. If the default PvP gear outshines Raid gear right off of the bat, then it becomes the obvious choice for entry level PvP, rendering those item rewards instantly obsolete. Our current design direction dictates that we don't want major, artificial divisions to exist between PvP and PvE. Your character should always be your character, and your gear is part of that package. While your current gear might not be optimal for a specific purpose, we want you to be able to take whatever you're wearing wherever you want to go (within reason, hence item level restrictions). For now, we strongly believe that arranging systems so that PvP gear only works in PvP and PvE gear only works in PvE would not feel good, nor be good for the game."

02/13/2013 05:04 PMPosted by Joedasa
Truthfully, I was applauding such a bold move on Blizzard's part to finally put a hypothetical end to the monumental grind to get gear, but seeing that it won't be here in 5.2 for the new season is just a huge letdown. Presumably, it will be here in 5.3, which, if it follows suit with MoP's patch release pace, will be in the middle of S13. It sounds awfully sloppy.


Just for clarity, catch-up hasn't been delayed, and was always planned for 5.3. We announced catch-up for 5.3 in this blog:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8397168/PvP_Gear_in_52_and_Beyond-1_17_2013