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Regional FlagRumors about 25 mans, please no BlizzSource
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Applemask
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#1 - 2012/04/16 11:39:00 AM
My argument in 1 sentence, because reading is tricky: 25 man raiding does not need any further tangible reward, if the experience enough is not worth it then DON'T DO IT; you have no grounds to ask that what you get for doing it be increased.

This thread has nothing to do with 10v25 which his harder drama, so don't.

Recently I have read many suggestions about how Blizzard should 'save' 25 man raiding. I really hope that these changes do not come about. I am going to edit this post as I have gained a lot of insight in the last 10 pages of text.

- Removing shared lockout between 10 and 25.
This would be great for 25 man raids, but logistically devastate 10 man raids. ICC showed us a 25 man raid can easily have multiple 10 man groups exist within it that run outside of the normal raid schedule, this is not possible for 10 mans. Blizzard themselves has cited that despite it being a 'choice' most of us felt obligated to clear both weekly.

- Splitting achievements between 10 and 25.
This again would be terrible for 10 man raiding, while only benefiting 25 main raiding. Answer the question below honestly, which is more likely:

25H guild clears heroic DS, forms 10 man groups to clear heroic DS 10 for achievements.

10H guild clears heroic DS, forms 25 man group to clear heroic DS 25 for achievements?

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The biggest flaw in this entire concept is that Blizzard is in any way responsible for saving 25 man content, or boosting its popularity if you feel saving is not the right word since it still very much exists. Blizzard themselves stated that the motivation to raid 25s is because you enjoy 25s, so if they cannot stand on their own merit why do they deserve to survive?
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The most common arguments I have seen:
"10 mans have had tons of changes made to favor them!"
This is a bad argument. Lets look at the changes between Wrath to Cataclysm for 10 man raiding: Blizzard created a shared loot table instead of designing one specific to 10 man raiding.

That's it, that is literally the only change. So Blizzard actually removed the only 10 man specific content that was left in the game and equalized both raid formats; how is equalization in any way the same thing as favoritism? It is not that your raid format fell behind in a biased environment, it is that it feel behind on equal footing.


"25 mans take more work, so if Blizzard does not want them to fail they should have more reward"

This is a logical fallacy for a few reasons. First, the assumption that Blizzard is responsible for preserving 25 man raiding like it is a unicorn is a bit silly. Blizzard stated that if you prefer 25 man raiding, then do it, of you prefer 10s, then do it.

You cannot say "I like 25s but they are more work, so give me more reward". 25 man raiding is either enough of it's own reward, or it is not. If it is not, you know your options, if it is, then keep working.

"Blizzard forced 25 man raiders to go to 10s'"
Easily my favorite argument regarding this. Lets look at this logically, at the start of Cataclysm 25 man raiding was the majority of the community. So what happened? If people wanted to raid 25s they had every opportunity to do so, so why did 25 man guilds dwindle?

If 25 man raiding is the preferred format didn't the death of a few 25 mans cause a surge in recruitment opportunities for those that remained? If 25 mans are what most people preferred how could it possibly dwindle? Every 25 man guild death (and there was a lot!) would have just made the remaining guilds even stronger, but the number kept dropping? The only logical conclusion is 25 mans are dieing because the community is completely happy with running 10s.

"If a 10 man guild wants to do 25 man content they can Pug"
... Pugging 15 people for a heroic raid is not a viable solution, I appreciate your input but yeah, no.

"You hate 25 mans/You want 25 mans to die/You have no idea how 25s work"
Not at all, but all 25 man raiders need to understand that basically any change that improves 25 man raiding will hurt 10 man raiding. I don't want 25 mans to die, but I think going out of our way to save them is silly as well, let nature take its course. Lastly I have raided every tier of content since launch, I know the logistics of every aspect of a Guild.

"If an aspect of the game is dieing, that is bad game design the designer needs to fix"
One of the best things I have read in this entire thread, and I do think Blizzard is fixing it; or rather it is fixing itself. 25 man, as so many of you 25 man raiders yourselves are pointing out, are more work then they are worth. Blizzard increased the size of the raiding community massively by introducing 10s. More people are raiding, and the less efficient more poorly designed raid size is being phased out. Sounds like a solid fix to me.

"The only reason 10s are successful is because they are logistically easier"
Not really. I wont deny that some aspects of 25 man raiding are inherently more difficult due to the number of people, but most of this can be overcome with good leadership and delegation. You have to manage more people, but you have more people to help you manage. Also 10 man guilds suffer the same shortcomings as 25 man guilds. When 1 member does not show up it is devastating; when one member is late we must wait for them. 10 man has its own hardships that are quite numerous, some of which revolve on the much slower pace a 10 man gears up due to how much more specific your gear needs are.

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Community Manager
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#412 - 2012/04/16 07:25:00 PM
We'll continue making adjustments as necessary to keep 10- and 25-player raids within a relative alignment, in terms of time investment, difficulty and rewards. It may never be perfect, but we still see interest in both raid sizes for different reasons. And ultimately we'll continue designing 25-player raids as long as there are a decent number of guilds interested in the format. We've seen no evidence as of yet that such interest is waning to any degree that should cause us great concern.

We tend to begin raid design around 25 players anyway before tuning for the various sizes and difficulties. That, when combined with our intent to carry on with 25-player Raid Finder group sizes, makes it very much worth our time to continue designing 25-player raids.

Regardless of what players' personal preferences or opinions are regarding the varied raid formats in World of Warcraft, we don't see removing options as a smart choice in the foreseeable future.