Vengeance: my arguments for change

#0 - Oct. 3, 2010, 9:12 a.m.

I'll preface this by saying that I like Vengeance - the idea of increasing tank dps based on the STA is pretty ingenius. It really is a great concept and when it works, it works well. Tank dps scales nicely when Vengeance ramps up and accordingly, threat ramps up with it. Having said that there are a couple of (imo) noteworthy flaws with the current implementation of Vengeance, and one of them behaves like a direct contradiction to the purpose and design of the spell. I don't mean this as a doom and gloom thread, nor is it meant to be QQ - just a concern of mine that has really built up over the past few days.

Rate of Decay

I fully understand the need to keep a tight leash on Vengeance in PvP/Arena. Tanks are difficult to fight against as it is, and a tank that can quickly accumilate 10k AP would easily burst many dps classes down. Personally I'd argue the case for not allowing vengeance to work at all in a PvP/arena scenario.

However, the extremely fast rate at which attack power granted by Vengeance decays - while still in combat - diminishes its use/reliability in PvE tremendously. Using my character pane I've watched my AP closely on countless pulls, while questing, soloing and even in Wrath raids on PTR. Thanks to things like avoidance, stuns and mitigation, Vengeance often decays faster than it stacks. I cannot stress how... self-defeating that feels. To watch my AP diminish as quickly - if not more so - as it increases, just because I had a couple of parries or dodges or because I cast Shockwave.

As I stated in another thread, it feels a lot like rage. The better our gear, the higher our avoidance and mitigation, the less reliable Vengeance will be. I am sure that while gearing/cutting our teeth in heroics and raids, tanks will be bombarded with damage - but again, that's the rage problem with a new name. Rage was fine in raids, we had it coming out of our noses - but it sucked in pretty much every other scenario until we got the revamped Shield Specialization. As I am sure Blizzard knows, a mechanic that only works as intended some of the time isn't fun. I've never enjoyed the "Works great in raids, but in 5mans I need to take off my pants" thing at all.

DPS class/spec scaling - the very reason Vengeance exists to begin with - have no such quirks. Better gear for a dps class = more dps, period. There is no circumstance or build up to it, there is no decay in spellpower or potency. Vengeance seems like it is literally fighting against itself to stack.

IMHO, Vengeance should not decay at all whle in PvE combat. The mechanic simply should not have a built in penalty for my having decent avoidance or a ton of armor or stun options. As a warrior, I generally stun multiple mobs (sometimes more than once) every single pull. Every single time I do that, I'm punished by Vengeance. Every time I dodge or parry several boss attacks, I'm punished by Vengeance. If the mechanic exists to ensure our dps and threat scales adequately, then please let it do so without penalizing tanks through so many circumstances. And I haven't even mentioned tank damage-reduction cooldowns or situations where a boss has to be taunted off.

The other issue I have with Vengeance is probably largely related to the above issue, and that is how slowly it often stacks. While dps are able to go full force from the start of a pull, tanks literally are missing 50-70% of their maximum potential attack power. My 85 warrior on beta has about 5k AP baseline and around 96,500 health in greens. in 5mans she has about 110k health. So, in that scenario Vengeance is responsible for granting her 11,000 AP - nearly twice (and in addition to) what she has by default. Of course, her spells and baseline damage have to be balanced around that - otherwise tanks would reach the point of being better at dps' jobs than they are. Thing is, as I mentioned above... dps don't have to wait 30-45 seconds into a pull to be at full strength. They are nuking fullforce from the getgo and riding the tank's bum on threat. I mean, we can't be expected to say "ok dps hold off for about 15-20 seconds until Vengeance is really turned up!"

(Of course it might just be the in-combat decay that makes Vengeance feel so slow sometimes)

And yes, I'm fully aware that Vengeance isn't here to solve all our threat problems. I've read the blue posts. But it is here to solve one very specific problem - the scaling of tank dps in proportion to damage dealing classes' dps. I think its an awesome idea - and a great goal to reach for - but it would be very nice if the ability didn't feel like it works against both itself and the 'reduce the damage I take' nature of tanking.

If nothing else, please consider removing the in-combat decay of AP. There are just too many things a tank does which cause that to kick in, and Vengeance should not be something that only works as intended when I am tanking progression content with a boss that hits me for 65-70k a swing. Rage wasn't fun when it worked that way: unlike rage, Vengeance affects 4 classes, not just one.

Ghostcrawler

#20 - Oct. 3, 2010, 8:04 p.m.

Q u o t e:
I'm glad it pretty much gives us just enough to stay ahead of the pack.

Yes, remember that this is the intent of Vengeance. It is designed to keep tank dps (and therefore threat) at a consistent level compared to the dps guys, even though the latter are gaining far more dps stats on their gear. Vengeance is for raid scaling.

If you're having trouble establishing initial aggro, that's a great thing to bring up. Other players can compare their experiences to yours and we might ultimately get an indication if numbers aren't quite right somewhere. Vengeance should play almost no role in initial aggro though. That is why it decays -- we want you to be able to establish threat using your own abilities.

Likewise, let us know if you see dps creeping up on you in longer fights (though this is going to be a bigger issue in raiding than even 5-player heroics). That is the problem Vengeance is supposed to fix.

Vengeance is not supposed to be a substitute for knowing how to play your class. If you just autoattack, even with Vengeance, and you lose aggro, then that's intended. If you use all of your abilities more or less correctly and lose threat with Vengeance (assuming similar gear, etc.) then that is not intended, and you should let us know.

Also keep in mind there is sometimes a fine line between "I want the buttons I press to matter" and "It's frustrating to not be able to generate enough threat." If we solve the latter issue completely, then the first one is collateral damage. (Also remember that "I want the buttons I press to matter" cannot be completely tied only to survivability, or your healers will be out of a job.)

Ghostcrawler

#40 - Oct. 3, 2010, 9:58 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Also in general the problem with this design is that in heroics (especially with people who are new to the beta, but even with many who should know better right now) I am having trouble with aggro at the start of the pull. Vengeance gives you more aggro later, the problem is that aggro issues nearly always are at the very beginning of the pull. It also doesn't help that my shockwave and shield block (which I almost need to use at the start of the pull) really choke off my vengeance production as well.

That's not a Vengeance problem though. That's a warrior threat problem. You shouldn't expect us to fix situations like that by tweaking Vengeance. Vengeance should not play a huge role in 5-player dungeons. If abilities like Shockwave and Shield Slam aren't enough to establish initial aggro, then we'd likely tweak those abilities or Defensive Stance itself.

Ghostcrawler

#42 - Oct. 3, 2010, 10:04 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Besides that, the biggest problem is that with Vengeance is still the "old rage problems" where it makes avoidance (including on use trinkets for example) just frankly bad (and that WILL translate to bosses), where it still isn't working with absorb bubbles from healers or gear, and so on.

It shouldn't translate to bosses though, because you shouldn't be dependent on Vengeance to keep threat. If Vengeance falls off, you shouldn't immediately wipe. That's not the intent. We don't want Vengeance to be the ultimate threat ability. It will eventually stack up and generally stay that way. It shouldn't be a razor's edge for you being able to keep threat.

-- The rouge pulls as soon as the fight starts -- a tank problem perhaps, but not a Vengeance problem. (It could also be that the rogue is hitting the wrong target or not waiting for the tank.)
-- The healer's hots pull mob #5 in an AE situation -- a tank problem perhaps, but not a Vengeance problem. (It could also be that the tank is terrible at generating threat.)
-- Six minutes into a boss fight, the mage starts to creep up on your threat -- this is a Vengeance problem. (It could also be that the tank isn't doing a good job hitting their main attacks.)

The reason we keep downplaying Vengeance in 5-player dungeons, which is all anyone is running at the moment on beta, is because it's not a dungeon mechanic. If you need a comparison, think of something like Fortitude or Blessing of Kings. It's nice but not at all mandatory for even heroic 5-player runs. It's pretty close to mandatory for a raid.

Ghostcrawler

#43 - Oct. 3, 2010, 10:07 p.m.

Q u o t e:
They can lower Prot's overall DPS because "They'll have vengeance in PVE." So dont' think it doesn't affect PVP. Because it does.

If we start to read too many complaints about tanks clobbering folks in PvP because of Vengeance, then the very first thing we will do is make it just not function in BGs or Arenas.

Your PvP role as a tank should be survivability and control. If that doesn't interest you, then choose a different spec for PvP.

Ghostcrawler

#48 - Oct. 3, 2010, 10:18 p.m.

Q u o t e:
patchwerk when it first comes out, vengeance works fine.
pathwerk now, with t10 gear and vengeance doesnt work

Until your avoidance gets to be 70% or so, you aren't likely to get so many streaks that you can't get Vengeance up. Now if you literally mean going back to content 3 or 4 tiers old, then we don't spend a great deal of effort balancing for that, but you also shouldn't be super worried about surviving on that content.