Ghostcrawler's latest blog entry

#1 - Dec. 9, 2011, 1:19 p.m.

"We are also taking some steps with Mists... to encourage more crossover between PvP and PvE as the game once had, so even if you don’t care for PvP now, maybe we can get you interested in the future."

This was said by Ghostcrawler on his latest blog, to justify the new talent trees. Well, guess what, some people just don't care nor do they want PvP into their PvE. I, personally, am one of those people. I dabbed into PvP a little bit some eons ago, when the game was new, only to find myself surrounded by cheaters and quitters, and that hasn't changed a single bit in the last 6 years.

I hate the BG's, not only for the players but for the game itself. Gross class imbalance makes it frustrating to play your favorite class/specc, BGs like SotA, AV and IoC are borderline boring. What's the point of having all this stuff when you can simply rush the NPC and win? No, Mr. Ghostcrawler, do not try to justify your PvP centered talents by forcing people into PvP.

There´s also this little gem:

"Second, a lot of raid bosses can’t be snared, but their adds and trash sure can be. We don’t do a lot of Patchwerk fights these days. Crowd control, movement increases, and defensive cooldowns are all an important part of raid encounters these days"

Excuse me? Are we talking about the same content? Exactly what encounter in ANY of the current raids requires heavy use of crowd control mechanics? Let me answer that one for you: NOT ONE!

Yes, current game design makes the new talents pointless and boring, and they will remain so unless you go back to creating gimmicky fights just to justify the existence of the first three shaman talent tiers. Which would lead to catch 22: No shaman? No way!

Also, have you even considered how useful a totem with 5 health is in PvP? Have shamans not complained enough about the health of their totems in arenas? I could go on and on about each talent and each tree, but the point of this post is to state that “We would like to interest people into PvP” is not a valid justification for the fact that the new talent trees are leaning heavily towards PvP.

Nethaera

Community Manager

#123 - Dec. 9, 2011, 3:33 p.m.

So we're going to be forced into pvp in MoP? Are there going to be away to level Not by pvping?

~ Well, personally, I'm getting my Bloodthirsty and retire this lock so I never have to pvp again.

Finding ways to make PvP enticing is not the same as forcing people into PvP. Please keep that in mind. I think there are too many people worried over something that isn't anything. We recognize that there are people who choose not to PvP. But, we also want to encourage those that may have an interest in it to be able to take part and still be competitive should they wish.

As he also said in his post that we are looking for feedback, just keep it constructive and keep in mind that the talents you see now are simply that. They are just the talents you see now. They are not final (in the "locked in place" sense). They can and will change as appropriate.

Nethaera

Community Manager

#133 - Dec. 9, 2011, 3:49 p.m.

Let's all take this conversation down a notch or two, avoid harassing or defamatory language toward each other, and avoid over-sensationalizing things. This isn't "us vs. them". World of Warcraft is a game that has a variety of play styles available to everyone that chooses to take part in them. There will always be some level of cross-over due to the fact that it would seem odd for there not to be. That said though, the development team takes great care to consider the impacts and whether it's "fun" or not.

That said, I will prune out trolling/harassing or defamatory posts if they continue. Treat each other and this conversation with respect please. There's no need for personal attacks here.

Nethaera

Community Manager

#146 - Dec. 9, 2011, 4:09 p.m.

the question is: How? How do you intend to make it interesting for those of us who can't find anything interesting in it? How do you intend to prevent griefing, botting, ganking and all those nasty things that plague current BG's and world PvP zones?

I'm going to break this down a bit here. First off, there is hardly ever a consensus even by PvPers on what constitutes "griefing" let along "ganking". The act of PvP itself is all about killing/disabling the other person so you either win or help your team win. So "preventing" it would imply putting in specific mechanics that discourage a behavior that is naturally occurring in PvP.

As for botting, we're always working toward ways of being able to detect and negate bots. We also though, rely on players to help report these to us so they can be investigated. As I'm sure you're aware, we've taken action against bot programs in the past and what you may not be aware of is that we are regularly taking care of bots, but we don't spend time publicizing this. Bots continue to become more and more sophisticated, and we are doing what we can to find better and better ways to detect these. Again though, the report function is there for a reason. If you report, it gives us an action point to start from in looking into a behavior to see if it's truly a bot or simply a person.

Ghostcrawler's post is clear, they are planning to bring PvP and PvE closer together in ways that may not be appealing to those of us who dislike PvP.

This is true, that we're trying to bring them closer together. But, I think it's a bit early for you to determine that this means you will be "forced" into PvP. It's about making choices in engaging in PvE and in PvP seem less punitive and make switching quickly and easily for the situation you're in easier all around whether you engage in PvE or in PvP. What may seem like a purely PvP talent now, may actually have a use still in PvE depending on the situation as well. Again, we have plans for the future in opening up more opportunities for PvP, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be forced into it.

I am very aware of this. I know they are not final or even close to being set in stone, but lets face it, some, if not most, of them are coming out as pretty worthless at the level they are picked. I mean, I think even Ghostcrawler will have a valid justification for the first tier druid talents, or believe that the first tier paladin talents are what a level 15 paladin actually needs.

Nothing has been said so far of any significant changes coming to the lower levels, therefore, none of the new talents, especially the ones for Druids, Paladins, Priests and Shamans, offer any particular utility at that level, especially if you are not interested in PvP. So, let’s look back in the talents and think a minute about what players at levels 15, 30, 45 and even 60 really need vs what they are being given.

I can’t be any more constructive because thus far little is known about MoP, but I can tell you one thing for sure: The proposed talents offer little to no utility for the levels they are being given at.

Generalities of "this doesn't work, this looks awful, there's no utility there" aren't helpful. We need specific examples. We also acknowledge though that giving your constructive feedback isn't going to always be easy (at least while we're just showing snippets), but that feedback could still be the spark we're looking for to make a change, so don't be discouraged.

Nethaera

Community Manager

#185 - Dec. 9, 2011, 4:41 p.m.

But, we also want to encourage those that may have an interest in it to be able to take part and still be competitive should they wish.

So you think a good way to encourage that interest is to design a core game system with ONLY those people in mind and ignore everyone else?

I'm sure there are plenty of those people who'd love to PvP, and I'm glad they are getting more options. But I'm not one of them, and I hate that they are getting options at my expense. So far as it is, I'm not excited about any of the new talents my class will be getting, I don't see any "choice" there. For all intents and purposes for me the talent system will be removed completely.

This is not what was said at all. You're completely twisting things to apply to your thoughts and opinion. No one is getting these options at anyone else's expense and if it seems that way to you, then you're not looking at the whole picture. Though, as I said before, I can also understand how you aren't able to get the whole picture since it's not quite out there yet for you to see it all.

Also, I'm going to state this one more time. Generalizations about what you don't like about the new talent system are not helpful. Saying you don't get anything good, doesn't tell us, what in particular you dislike. Saying you don't have PvE options likewise, doesn't say what it is you think isn't something you could use in PvE.

Again, I think people are taking this discussion way too extreme. This isn't us swinging the pendulum to one side or the other. The expressions of "If you make me do this, I'm leaving" likewise aren't constructive or helpful. We value your thoughts and opinions, but it's important that if you express them, you take a deep breath first and think about what those thoughts and opinions really mean and how they can be applied toward improving things versus simply voicing a concern to air it.

Lorne says it well here:

True, little is known about MoP.

But you can easily give feedback on the current build of the new talents that is available to us on the website.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/mists-of-pandaria/feature/talent-calculator

If you have ideas, suggestions, concerns or outright criticisms, get cracking! Just remember you're not going to help them with "this is stupid, change it." because they have no idea what you'd like to see in its place.

Nethaera

Community Manager

#191 - Dec. 9, 2011, 4:46 p.m.

Much better Moonshroud. It's a start at least. Hopefully, discussions like these will become more prominent with give and take thoughts and ideas. We'll keep track of these discussions and do what we can to answer as we can. The most important part right now is that the discussion occurs.

Nethaera

Community Manager

#199 - Dec. 9, 2011, 4:53 p.m.

12/09/2011 08:47 AMPosted by Xykons
This is not what was said at all. You're completely twisting things to apply to your thoughts and opinion. No one is getting these options at anyone else's expense and if it seems that way to you, then you're not looking at the whole picture. Though, as I said before, I can also understand how you aren't able to get the whole picture since it's not quite out there yet for you to see it all.

Right now, I have a working 31 point talent tree that allows me to make a character. In MoP, I will have a bunch of pvp talents I don't care about. That's the whole picture for me. Every PVP centric MMO has failed, and now to see WoW pushing recklessly into it is depressing.

No one is "pushing recklessly". This is another embellishment that isn't necessary to the discussion. You will still have a working character in Mists of Pandaria. Your choices will matter more than choosing +1% to X etc. You will be able to adjust your character more quickly and easily to situations and to your preference. World of Warcraft is not becoming a "PvP centric" game, but it will continue to consider the impact of all changes on both PvE and PvP and as a part of that consideration, find the best "sweet spot" for making them more harmonious with each other so that IF you so choose to engage in one or the other, it feels rewarding.

Nethaera

Community Manager

#260 - Dec. 9, 2011, 5:38 p.m.

personally, my problem with PvP is that you can't just "Do it!"

You have to spend hours getting one shot by people in full latest-tier PvP gear until you can inch your way into getting gear to PvP...

If you could just go and PvP in a balanced manner, regardless of armor quality, then yeah, PvP would be great.

Not saying I don't love to PvP... I just hate the grind-before-you're-capable-to-defend-yourself part.

Just a quick additional point in regard to "bringing PvE and PvP closer"; When we say this, we're also talking about making the idea of having to collect separate gear for each less of an issue (like it became in Wrath of the Lich King). For those who are concerned about having to "grind" to get good enough PvP gear to even step into a Battleground, our intent is to make this less of an issue. We want PvE gear to be useful in PvP and vice versa, but neither should be quite as good as the other. You'll still be able to be viable either way. Meaning, if you want to go from your Raid into a Battleground for a bit, you won't necessarily need to swap gear, and if you go from PvP into a dungeon, people shouldn't get immediately incensed that you didn't change for the occasion.

While we would like to explore some options for adding more world PvP (because clearly many players keep asking for it) it would purely be optional. PvE players with no interest in PvP should be able to ignore it and vice versa. We just want to provide more opportunities for crossover (again for players who keep asking for it) than exist today.

Nethaera

Community Manager

#277 - Dec. 9, 2011, 5:54 p.m.

While we would like to explore some options for adding more world PvP (because clearly many players keep asking for it) it would purely be optional. PvE players with no interest in PvP should be able to ignore it and vice versa. We just want to provide more opportunities for crossover (again for players who keep asking for it) than exist today.

The issue I think is that talents were always viewed as a defining aspect of the character and many people are upset that this aspect is being remade into an optional utility tool for easier pvp-pve crossover.

I don't think cookie-cutter talent builds as they are now are so terribly detrimental to the game as we are led to believe. You can't remove cookie-cutter builds without either concealing mechanics completely or making everything uniformly bland. If you remove cookie cutter talent builds, there would be cookie-cutter specs, that simply perform better than others. If you fix those, there would be cookie-cutter classes.

If you really want to introduce these new utility pve-pvp talents, you can do it ALONGSIDE the current talent system.

By your argument though, you're saying that cookie-cutter specs aren't bland. If you talk to players who have been "forced" into cookie-cutter builds, I think you'd find many of them do find this detrimental to their ability to play the game the way they want to play it. We're working to provide options that avoid the "you must" mentality as much as possible. We tried to tweak the current talent system as a part of Cataclysm, and it just wasn't where we wanted it. Yes, this is a more "drastic" approach, but the freedom it allows for making choices that matter on an individual basis have the potential to be far more fun for people to make those choices they want.

Nethaera

Community Manager

#374 - Dec. 9, 2011, 7:29 p.m.

No one is "pushing recklessly". This is another embellishment that isn't necessary to the discussion. You will still have a working character in Mists of Pandaria. Your choices will matter more than choosing +1% to X etc. You will be able to adjust your character more quickly and easily to situations and to your preference. World of Warcraft is not becoming a "PvP centric" game, but it will continue to consider the impact of all changes on both PvE and PvP and as a part of that consideration, find the best "sweet spot" for making them more harmonious with each other so that IF you so choose to engage in one or the other, it feels rewarding.

You're taking a system that you admit works today, and completely changing it to an untested one. You're taking a system people are comfortable with and we know accomplishes what the players want, and you're changing it to a system that appears to have engendered quit a bit of... well, it isn't vitriol so much as it is a complete lack of caring. The fact that players are discussing simply randomly taking points because it doesn't matter for the type of gameplay they prefer would seem to be a rather massive black mark against the new system.

Actually, we said that the talent system as it is today, is "fundamentally flawed".