The Well of EternaLoreMangling

#1 - Nov. 30, 2011, 7:19 a.m.
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The accent Tyrande has was bad.

The explicitly sinister Illidan, despite this being before he absorbed the skull of Guldan, and even before he was imprisoned and chained for 10,000 years, is worse.

The pre-Deathwing Neltharion model complete with body ruptures and metallic jaw/plates is just laugh-out-loud ridiculous.

They could have just used a generic black dragon model and it would have been less out of place. This is akin to if we'd gone to Culling of Stratholme, and instead of the unique Arthas-as-paladin model we found there, they just used the Lich King, complete with Frostmourne for weapon.

I swear, every time I think I'm over caring about the lore of this game, Blizzard finds a new low to reach in breaking my sense of immersion. One of the dungeons i was looking forward to the most turns out to be one I can barely stomach.

The rest of it was so well done, it just makes these specific things all the more glaring for some reason. Probably just me.

Edit:

Finally caught up on every post in this thread (didn't expect it to explode like it did, but then I didn't expect a Blue post either, and one invariably follows from the other), and I'll respond as broadly as I can:

1) Whether the voice actress for Tyrande is the same or not is irrelevant. Why is voice acting being treated any less important than actual, "real" acting? If in the middle of a series the exact same character played by the same actress suddenly switched from a vaguely eastern European accent, to a strong, guttural Caribbean one, for no explainable reason, would people just say "Eh it's the same actress, who cares?" I find it amusing how many people try to excuse it with "It's 10,000 years ago." No one else has this different accent 10k years ago, or even sound anything like her, and even if they did, she ALSO has the odd accent in the End Time instance, so that argument falls apart in two different ways.

2) It's not so much Illidan's actions or lines that bothered me as, again, his voice acting. He growled his words out like he was auditioning to be the next Batman, and hissss ssss's were sssssssibiliant enough to win him honorary membership in the Slytherin House for snake-tongued evil villains. It just seemed to reinforce to me that Blizzard has lost all capability of writing subtlety in their characters and stories... how is it that Illidan sounds MORE bitter and MORE bloodthirsty before his 10k year imprisonment than he does after? Why is he so pissed off at Malfurion that he's willing to let him die (pay attention to dialogue: he says that he'd tried to teleport Tyrande and himself away from the exploding well, not Furion), before his brother even imprisons him? Can't he be arrogant and powerhungry without sounding like a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain that just happens to be on your side? I was really hoping this instance would give us a chance to see Illidan "as he could have been," arrogant and hungry for glory, yeah, but plenty of perfectly flawed heroes can have those things without telegraphing with every sentence that they're a hairbreadth away from megalomania.

3) Every excuse for the model just falls flat in the face of logic and contrary evidence. For one thing, people drawing a comparison between the damage he had at the time and how much he has now are painting in rather broad strokes: how are a few fissures in his chest covered by metal plates in any way comparable to his entire abdomen barely held together, and completely replacing his lower jaw? I find it hard to believe resources were strapped this patch in terms of graphic design... after all, the raid is filled with even more reskinned bosses and mobs, and even uses completely recycled environments (for understandable reasons). A large portion of the time and effort clearly went into the 3 5-man dungeons, but not enough to reskin Deathwing's hide and jaw? An entirely unique humanoid model was made for ONE QUEST in the BADLANDS that most people haven't even seen, but a reskin of an existing model is too much? Look, someone else even did it for you back in August! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXKW1SBFgfs

I'm a lore fan first and foremost. Gameplay gets old, mechanics can only be innovated so much in such little time, and graphics aren't as important as artistic consistency. Stories change though. Stories evolve. I'm not one of those people who dislikes change for the sake of change; but it's got to be consistent with the story so far. Without the story, the lore, the characters, all bleeding through as authentically and vibrantly as possible in every aspect of the game, it does worse than lose my interest, it repels me away.

Flanderization of all the strong "good" female characters, trivialization of many previous central characters, cartoon vilification of most major Big Bads... it's hard to imagine at this point Blizzard ever finally learning from their mistakes and making the breakthrough they need to tell a good story in an MMO medium, but little things like the mistakes in this dungeon (and others) just sends a message to me that getting content out is more important than getting content right, because if it's good enough for 90% of the audience that only wants to zoom through it for loot, who cares about the other 10%, or whatever the number is?

Except of course that it's the story that ultimately is going to be remembered. Not the "epic lootz."
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#59 - Dec. 1, 2011, 9:22 p.m.
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11/29/2011 11:19 PMPosted by Daystar
The accent Tyrande has was bad.


The same voice actress is responsible for her voice then and now.

11/29/2011 11:19 PMPosted by Daystar
The explicitly sinister Illidan, despite this being before he absorbed the skull of Guldan, and even before he was imprisoned and chained for 10,000 years, is worse.


He was already blinded and making use of demonic power by this point, however. I'm not quite certain what you mean by 'explicitly sinister', but he was already largely estranged from his fellows and pursuing his own research at this point. In that light, we thought it would be more interesting to show a little bit of corruption even before he consumes the powers in the skull as opposed to just having him look like a straight-up night elf.

11/29/2011 11:19 PMPosted by Daystar
The pre-Deathwing Neltharion model complete with body ruptures and metallic jaw/plates is just laugh-out-loud ridiculous.


I know that this might be a bit tough to swallow for some, but the use of the current Deathwing model in that scene was a matter of efficiency. A ton of work went into 4.3, and we squeezed in as much as we could, but it didn't make sense to dedicate the huge resources it takes to create a custom model for that one cameo, and we were concerned that using a generic black dragon model wouldn't have the same immediate value of recognition.

Modifying the Illidan model made more sense because you actually spend some time running around with him in the dungeon.

On that note, I should point out that creating custom models actually consumes substantial resources, so they're precious to us. Tyrande didn’t have her own model for seven years, Sylvanas didn’t have her own model for several years, etc. We'd love to have custom models for every character, for every scene at every point in the timeline, but the resources simply don't exist to make that happen. In the meantime, we hope that players can use a little bit of imagination and still enjoy the dungeons anyway, even if a given model isn't always a perfect reflection of the character.
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#104 - Dec. 1, 2011, 10:19 p.m.
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For those debating the topic, watch this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buAYXA50K4w


Weird. Almost sounds like the same person.
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#110 - Dec. 1, 2011, 10:27 p.m.
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12/01/2011 02:19 PMPosted by Phôsphoros
The resources don't exist?


I didn't say they don't exist. They were just directed toward other efforts.

For example, there's a lot of new item and environment art in this patch. There are new mounts, new armor sets, new weapons, new pets. Ultimately, while we would love to do everything, at the end of the day we always have to make choices about how and where the resources are spent.


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#128 - Dec. 1, 2011, 10:52 p.m.
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Listen to the steadiness of her voice. The lack of "da"s. She sounds refined fitting a Priestess of the Moon, currently she sounds like an old Troll.

Especially compared to Azshara, when Tyrande is the past is supposed to be younger.


I was probably a bit too flip in that response, and I think that the feedback that her current accent is too thick has been heard loud and clear. I was just pointing out that she's always had an accent though, to one degree or another.

How does this excuse allowing your voice actors to sound awful?!

It's been many years - give her some guidance, have her listen to her old stuff.

It's bad enough that you butchered Lady Sylvanas' voice. Is this lazy voice acting direction what we can expect more of?


I fear you might have misunderstood. The response of mine you quoted about resources had nothing whatsoever to do with the voice acting.
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#238 - Dec. 2, 2011, 1:40 a.m.
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Posted by Daxxarri
We'd love to have custom models for every character, for every scene at every point in the timeline, but the resources simply don't exist to make that happen.

12/01/2011 02:27 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I didn't say they don't exist.

Wait, wat now?


Oh, hah. Well, hopefully what I meant comes across anyway.

12/01/2011 03:32 PMPosted by Xaviel
I know you have to be all "PR responsible" and stuff, but that's a pretty lame answer in my opinion. In fact, every time someone complains about something not being of top-notch quality, it always comes back to this answer.


We always come back to that because we have x development resources which must accomplish y goals in z time. It's very common that there will be some give and take during the process. All of this is in service of trying to get the most out of the time we invest to create the best experience possible. That's incredibly important to us, and hopefully we've created some very worthwhile experiences not only in these instances, but all the other patch content too. Still, whether it's a reality of game development or not, I acknowledge that it's probably not a very satisfying answer when it seems that we've missed something that was important to you.

12/01/2011 03:32 PMPosted by Xaviel
What exactly are the people Blizzard has hired doing then? If all their efforts are resorted to weapons and mounts, instead of the prime focus of your latest patch, that's ridiculous. Unless you find the prime focus of the patch to be the weapons and mounts, then that's just sad.


Our artists were busy creating new models for weapons, mounts, pets, new environments, among other things (including an entire future expansion which is currently in development). It's easy to make all those things seem unimportant, but we disagree - we want the stuff you pick up, wear and keep to look awesome whenever we can make that happen. These dungeons were an important part of 4.3 (I think the term 'prime focus' overstates the case a bit, though) and actually, a tremendous amount of effort went into making them not only fun and engaging, but also as lore-appropriate and visually authentic as possible. It's a little unfortunate that the majority of that effort is being completely overlooked.

12/01/2011 03:32 PMPosted by Xaviel
You couldn't have taken a random black dragon, increased it's size... Gave it more texture, etc? Heck, you could have taken the current model of Deathwing and modified that.


All of those were possible courses of action, sure, though I suspect that using a different existing model would likely had the same result. Slight modifications to an existing model may not even have been noticed, given the light show going off in that scene. Also, as others have pointed out, he was already wearing the armor at that point. In the end, we're currently having a long discussion about a single model which appears for a few seconds, and is wreathed in gold lightning for much of that time.
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#251 - Dec. 2, 2011, 2:09 a.m.
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12/01/2011 06:05 PMPosted by Dunkleberry
Why do CMs bother answering questions about lore that are in the general forums instead of one of the many in the Story forums where this discussion belongs?


Because this was more of a discussion about development resources and model use, less than an actual lore discussion?

12/01/2011 06:02 PMPosted by Coleslaw
Quick Dax! We need someone flipping a table over this kind of nonsense!


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