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Regional FlagPlease stop with 7dps 10-man fightsSource
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Arazu
Target Source
#1 - 2011/07/09 09:21:00 PM
I'd like to start with a relevant quote from Greg Street about the dual spec feature when it was first introduced:

Very skilled or “into it” dps players absolutely can maximize their trash or boss dps through their spec. In fact, you hear a lot that certain talents aren’t good for bosses because they do things like improve your down time, AE or survivability. But all of those things can be great for fast clears. Players also sometimes say (silly) things like how they only care about how they perform on a boss. But if you want to do something like the LK equivalent of a ZA fast clear for the bear mount, you need to be fast across the board, not just on the 4 bosses. Players wipe on trash too.

We’re not going to make crazy fights where we expect the entire raid to respec into something weird. That was even asked at Blizzcon and the guy in charge of all of the boss design said simply “No” in reply. If we can’t assume you have a warrior or druid tanking, then we can’t assume you have a mage with an obscure talent build or 12 healers or something else abnormal.


In heroic tier 11, there were 2 out of 13 fights that required only one tank. There were another two fights that encouraged bringing only one tank, but were tuned so that they could still be done with two. Some people complained that this was too many single-tank fights, and there was a relevant blue post that boiled down to "different fights are different" and said that we should expect some single-tank fights. This is fine. There was only one fight in heroic tier 11 where the idea of bringing 7 dps was even viable, and that fight was tuned such that you certainly didn't have to.

In heroic tier 12, there are three out of seven fights that require bringing only one tank. This on its own is a frustrating failure that leaves me scrambling to find things for my group's other tank to even do, and the only reason he's getting significant playtime in Firelands at all is because he also raids on another character. There's even one fight that almost feels like a zero-tank fight (Heroic Rhyolith), because your single-tank's role on that fight is so limited (stand in one spot, fight a spark, wait for p2). Firelands has made dps' role in the raid far more important and that's valid, but it's done so at the expense of mine. In the same way that many players refuse to tank, I refuse to dps. I don't have a single character with a dps spec, and I don't plan to in the future. I should be able to play the role I want to play in a raid just as much as the dps players should be able to dps, but heroic tier 12 is making it quite significantly more difficult to be a non-dps person without an offspec.

The same pressure appears to be present for healers. Heroic tier 11 did not have a single fight that specifically required only bringing 2 healers. My group 3-healed Sinestra even when it wasn't popular, and it was doable. Other groups 3-healed Heroic Chogall, and that was doable. People even 3-healed Baradin Hold. Heroic tier 12 however introduces the first raid boss in Cataclysm that cannot be 3-healed, and when this healer pressure combines with tank pressure at the same time it leads to bringing 7 dps to a 10-player raid encounter. The fact that it's required for one of the bosses is something seriously wrong with the boss, in my opinion. The fact that it's strongly encouraged for more than one of the bosses, in a tier with so few bosses in general, is something seriously wrong with the raid. Not every person in this game wants to play dps. I absolutely will not.

Many players often complain about a tank shortage. Requiring 70% of your raid to be dps in a 10man fits the description of "something weird", as Ghostcrawler put it, and this is certainly something that exacerbates that shortage. My raid's other tank is bored already, and I seriously dislike having to ask him to come in for trash and then swap back out when we reach the boss. That's not fair to him at all, and having to do it for half of Firelands is kind of outrageous. This is getting to be almost as skewed as 25mans are.

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Virina
Target Source
#2 - 2011/07/09 09:24:00 PM
My raid's other tank is bored already, and I seriously dislike having to ask him to come in for trash and then swap back out when we reach the boss. That's not fair to him at all, and having to do it for half of Firelands is kind of outrageous.


I'm sure other people will point this out, but.. why not let him maintank?

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Community Manager
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#51 - 2011/07/12 12:24:00 AM
We think one of the biggest challenges in encounter design for a 7-year old game is coming up with mechanics that long-time players haven’t seen a dozen times before. To that end, we're really reluctant to put too many constraints on encounter design. The majority of our fights have 2 tanks and we think that’s close enough. Shoe-horning a 2nd tank role into a fight for which it doesn’t really fit doesn’t make that 2nd tank feel any more heroic – they are often just soaking cleaves, doing taunt swaps, or corralling adds or something.

On normal mode Firelands, the numbers are tuned such that you can get away with comps with fewer tanks and healers, if you’re overgeared or fairly skilled. In Heroic mode, there is only one fight (Majordomo) designed as a single tank fight. Some guilds use one tank on Baelroc, but that puts a lot of stress on the healers, and we see a lot of guilds use two as well. We also see DPS sometimes try to tank, or see tanks tank in DPS gear. It depends a lot on what your group can manage.

I’ll also point out that we had a much more inconsistent number of tanks before dual spec was introduced. It’s not really a dual spec issue at all. We wouldn’t expect a lot of zero tank or five tank fights. But again, it’s more important for us to have diverse, fun encounters than for everyone in the raid to get equal time in the spotlight on every single encounter. If you never get your time, that’s another matter, but I don’t think we’re there. On the other hand, some fights (Shannox and Alysrazor) give two tanks some really fun things to do.

7 also isn’t a lot of bosses (in terms of pure head count, not content or quality), so it’s hard to extrapolate a lot of “trends” at this point.