Remarkably Unkind Design Decision [Long]

#1 - June 30, 2011, 6:08 a.m.
Blizzard Post
As a forward this is about the Legendary Staff/Legendary Quest. I admit it is an angry post, but I believe it is a righteous anger and composed this in as calm and even a manner as I could. This post is quite long, do not read if you do not care about the state of fairness between 10 and 25 mans or the state of the Legendary Staff questline.

If you wish only to see the egregious design decision in question just look for the section outlined with dotted lines.

I've been playing this game for a very very long time, going on six years now. And until today I thought that, for the most part (there have been ups and downs), Blizzard was pretty fair. Even if things weren't balanced, what existed Blizzard at least tried to make fair.

Until this patch.

I appreciate allowing ten mans to get the Legendary, thank you very much for that. That is -fair-. I cannot tell you how unfair I thought it was that Shadowmourne was unobtainable for ten mans in the last expansion. So this was good. But it brings me to one of the truly most unfair thing I think Blizzard may have ever done.

Ten mans got screwed (yes screwed, not "the short end of the stick" not "slightly down", screwed) when it comes to the quest item (Eternal Ember) required at the beginning of the Legendary Questline.

For those that don't know, this quest item is dropped by the bosses in the new raid and required to complete the first stage of the Legendary Staff Quest.

Here is the unfair part: In 25 man raids, every single boss is guaranteed to drop an Eternal Ember AND may drop 2 or even as many as 3 Eternal Embers at a time. Let me repeat that concisely, 25 Man raids obtain one to three quest items per boss kill, guaranteed.

Now, on the other side of the raiding coin, 10 Mans are a very different story. In 10 Man, you are not guaranteed to get an Eternal Ember on every boss, and the maximum Eternal Embers you can receive per boss kill is singular, 1 and only one.

Now, the patch hasn't been out long enough to say any of this with certainty, but assuming an even drop rate (33% chance for 1, 2 and 3 each for 25 man and 50% for 0 or 1 each for 10 man), on average a 25 Man guild run will receive 2 Eternal Embers per boss kill, while a 10 Man guild run will receive 0.5 Eternal Embers per boss kill.

But, as we know, in a game with RNG not all drop rates will follow the average for every raid. Some guilds will have very good luck, and others will have very bad luck. And here's where fairness truly comes into play. I'm not too worried about the people in very lucky guilds: lucky 25 Man guilds (ones who get the top 50% every time, like getting heads on a coin flip 7 times in a row) will get around 2.5 Eternal Embers per boss. Lucky 10 Man guilds will get 1 Eternal Ember per boss. Now, that's okay! That's FAIR! Do you know why? Because 25 mans have 2.5 times as many people as 10 mans.

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What is unfair, is the unlucky guilds. Unlucky 25 Man guilds (ones who get the bottom 50% every time) will get around 1.5 Eternal Embers per boss, they can still work toward the Staff, albeit at a slower pace compared to the luckier ones. Unlucky 10 Man guilds will get 0 Eternal Embers per boss. None. Zero. 0. Goose egg. Nada. Nothing. Null. A whole lotta nothin'.

That is unacceptable. It is unreasonable, unnecessary, and again, unacceptable.

As I said above, an unlucky 25 Man guild is always working toward their staves. They are always at least getting something for their effort in the instance every single day. Unlucky 10 Man guilds on the other hand, whatever their effort, however many hours they put into the bosses, are subject to the whims of the Random Number Generator and may get absolutely nothing for their efforts.

If you want to know why I truly find this unacceptable you need only realize one thing. While there are guilds who will always get 3, or 1 every boss kill, that also means there are guilds that might NEVER get an Eternal Ember in a 10 Man raid.

That is NOT OKAY Blizzard. Unacceptable in every way shape and form.
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So, there is my problem, and any other 10 Man raiding guild's problem.

Now, I don't just post this to be a prophet of doom, I came prepared with a couple of solutions that I feel are quite reasonable, one being more reasonable than the other.

This one is slightly unfair in my opinion but it would certainly solve the problem handily. Simply make all of the bosses in 10 Man always drop an Eternal Ember. Period. Like many other quest items in the game world, just make it a 100% one at a time drop from any Firelands Raid boss.

Or, keeping things somewhat more fair, which as stated earlier is very important to me, you could just make it a 100% drop on some bosses. The last three are prime candidates. I think the Gatekeeper, Majordomo Staghelm, and the Boss Man Ragnaros himself should always drop an Eternal Ember. And then for the first four bosses make it extremely unlikely, but still possible, to get zero Eternal Embers. Something in the 25% for 0/75% for 1 dropping.

In order to maintain a semblance of competition with 25 Man raids it needs to be possible for all 10 Man guilds, not most, not some, ALL 10 Man guilds to work toward their staves every time they kill bosses in the raid instance.

As the days march on and the drop rates are made concrete via mass statistical input I'm sure some of this might change, but as it stands now, it is a hard FACT that some 10 Man guilds could never work toward a Legendary Staff, regardless of their skill or persistence.

Just as an extra note I made this post before my guild has even gone into the instance yet to be as objective as possible. Mine being a 10 man guild I obviously can't be as objective as many could want, but I tried.

Thank you very much for your time if you submitted yourself to reading this. I felt it needed to be said, and now I have.

There is no tl;dr section, if you're looking here for one and haven't read the post, I bloody well warned you it was long.
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Community Manager
#89 - July 1, 2011, 1:04 a.m.
Blizzard Post
You’re assuming the drop chances for embers averages out to .5 per boss in 10’s and 2 per boss in 25’s, which it doesn’t. Whether you’re in 10’s or 25’s you’re going to see an equal drop average for Eternal Embers per player, and the same can be said for Seething Cinders.

From Ask the Devs #4:

A: Our main goal is to offer the Legendary in both 10 and 25 without requiring say a 25-player raid to feel like they have to switch to running 10s for the sole purpose of Legendary fragment acquisition (and the same is true for 10s). Our plan is to make Legendary completion take longer to acquire in 10-player raids. The exact ratio will be somewhat obfuscated because of the variation in the amount of fragments dropped per boss based on both raid size and raid difficulty. However, you can plan on it being maybe 2 to 2.5 times faster for the 25-player raid. It should feel analogous to number of Valor points or gold dropped in 25s, and is being treated the same.