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Regional Flagdungeon journal: down the spiral we goSource
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Vilespirit
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#1 - 2011/05/16 02:17:00 AM
I'm surprised there haven't been any posts about this latest addition to the PTR.

The encounter journal is an amazingly thorough description of every normal and hard mode encounter, with lists of abilities and in many cases instructions on how to deal with them. It's fully functional on the PTR - which means that any top raiding guild has access to everything it needs to know to defeat Heroic Ragnaros, right now.

Some of the more melodramatic top 10 EU guilds have already expressed their opinion on this being the Cataclysmic End to Raiding in the World of Warcraft. Since it's too late to take this information back, Blizzard has made a very clear statement:
Discovery and inventiveness in raiding are bad, with perfect execution being all that matters.

As someone who's been raiding at a higher level than most of you can ever hope to achieve, I have to say that I'm a bit saddened (though not shocked) by this slide. The days of creativity are slowly drifting away, replaced by those that can field the most technically perfect raid and nothing else.

The world top guilds will remain world top guilds, but the progression race for this tier has been irrevocably ruined.

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Runeytunes
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#2 - 2011/05/16 02:27:00 AM
Um... Aren't all the fights on video and explained on youtube already? Are you saying that the lazy will now beat raid bosses because of this information that can now be found ingame?

And I am way to lazy to check, but since you are an 80, I am guessing that your glory days of raiding are behind you?

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Community Manager
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#86 - 2011/05/19 09:51:00 PM
We have not in fact made the statement that "Discovery and inventiveness in raiding is bad” with the introduction of the Dungeon Journal. We have simply said, "Here are the tools to be successful. Go forth and conquer." We have in no way said "how" to do it nor is that our intention for this feature. The ability to play your character within a team of other people is all up to you and your skills. We're just trying to make it more possible to be successful within the game with information that lends itself to aiding success.

We want the discovery and challenge to come into play as a result of actually facing the mechanics versus simply being beaten by the mechanics of the game to begin with to even start working on a strategy to defeat the encounter (which is what many top raiding guilds end up doing.) It's very difficult for anyone to claim that discovery is a large portion of the game when we live in a world of datamining, PTR videos, boss kill addons, and extensive documentation of everything by a very savvy and experienced gaming community.

We want to provide a common language to communicate with as well. What exists now is something that has evolved over time in an organic way, but not everyone is speaking the same "language". This way, you can call the "big blue thing" by its name rather than resorting to trying to describe it or make up a new name for it.

We know that players already go out to outside sources to look for information. On some occasions, this information may even have misinterpretations of the boss abilities and cause some frustration for those who are attempting to kill the mob based on that information. We're simply making what you're facing a bit clearer where it needs to be made clear. This isn’t the fault of those documenting these things. From our end, not all abilities that bosses use are as clear as we could have made them or should make them be.

It's expected that the top-end guilds that like to go for the first kill/s will still be able to accomplish this with or without the Dungeon Journal existing. We have no fear that they will suddenly be overrun and lose their place simply because everyone is starting with the same information.

That said, we have been listening to feedback as well and have trimmed back a little of the information. We also may consider (for the future) not documenting specific abilities for very difficult bosses like Sinestra, or heroic modes on final bosses like Ragnaros, or even what exactly causes Onyxia to deep breathe. Getting solid constructive feedback that we can consider to set into motion for change is always welcome and useful to us.

If all else, if you still want to take on encounters without the use of the Dungeon Journal, you can. Just don't open it. What you don’t know, will probably kill/wipe you. ;)



Since it's too late to take this information back, Blizzard has made a very clear statement:
Discovery and inventiveness in raiding are bad, with perfect execution being all that matters.




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Community Manager
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#98 - 2011/05/19 10:19:00 PM


The top-end guilds WANT to beat their heads against walls, be beaten by mechanics, then learn and adapt to them. You are taking this away from them. Many guilds without nearly as much progression want that too. As for those who don't care about "claiming discovery," the guides are out for them by the time they reach that point in progression and want them, if they do want them. *Everyone* already has as much info as they want or *don't* want *already*. The progression by the entire WoW community as it stands is as it should be, as a result of those last few sentences I typed, simply because everyone has what they wants, whether the DJ supporters will acknowledge that or not. This is a really rediculous idea as a result. Take it out.


No one is taking anything away from you. You personally do not need to (nor does your guild) actually look at the information in the Dungeon Journal at any point in time. If you want to go into it blind, you can.

As for your last two sentences, I highly advise that if you wish to hold a constructive discussion, that you refrain from statements such as those. They are not constructive or productive to this discussion. All the reasons for which we want to add this feature are in my post. If you don't agree, that's OK. But making demands of "Take it out" are not constructive or productive.

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Community Manager
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#115 - 2011/05/19 10:39:00 PM

Simply not true. We shouldn't have to choose between the excitement of figuring things our for ourselves and staying competitive with other guilds who WILL use the journal.


Except you already have to make that choice to go read the information and watch the videos on an external location to compete.

The informational available elsewhere also provides far more information than we are providing in the Dungeon Journal. Again, all we're doing is giving you information to get started. What you choose to do what that information is up to you.

Reading the Dungeon Journal will not make you suddenly become Keanu Reeves in the Matrix (or Chuck Bartowski) and say, "I know Kung Fu."

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Community Manager
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#132 - 2011/05/19 11:00:00 PM

It's a no-brainer. "X ability: Creates a patch of fire at X % of health/time" Okay, at that point, don't stand in the fire. The strats are indirectly being explained already. This arguement is flawed as a result.

Yes, many of us do make the choice to tab out and watch a vid or read a strat, or both. But the top-end guilds do NOT, so that arguement is also flawed. They don't have it and they don't want it. You're simply adding an anti-tab-out convencience to players at the cost of the top-end guilds and those who spectate the races. It isn't good and it isn't wanted, except by those who don't understand this.


The, "I know Kung Fu" quote was meant to simply illustrate that knowing something and being able to do something are two very different things. For Neo (the character) knowing was the same as being able to do. In this case, the knowledge the journal provides does not automatically translate to being able to do.

That said, what you're saying though translates to wanting to deny others (guilds that aren't top end raiding guilds) a chance to succeed from the start of the introduction of a new dungeon or raid. Denying someone else something because you want to do it the "hard way" isn't a reason to scrap the Dungeon Journal.

Again, constructive feedback is great. Helping us refine how much is too much for everyone is a great. Asking us to deny others a useful tool, is not so great.

*I would like to take a moment to remind everyone to refrain from personal attacks. We are sharing words here, not insults.