Why are you completely noobifying wow?

03/17/2011 10:24 AMPosted by Eachitandi

True Wower's weve been here since Vanilla and understand the Value of a good Grind.

Do tell. What is the value of a good grind?

03/17/2011 11:55 AMPosted by Anaideia

Do tell. What is the value of a good grind?

It's an accomplishment.

So is a bowel movement. :)

A grind is defined as a repetitive task you do not enjoy. Why wouldn't we try, at all times, to ensure the game is something that people enjoy? I get that there's a sense of "Well I'm a real WoW player because I remember when leveling was way worse than it is now." And grats to all of us on that, it's fun remembering those times, but I've been playing since Alpha, I enjoy leveling alts, and I personally want a better leveling experience. I've been playing a long time, I've enjoyed it the whole time, but improvements are improvements. Y'know? And I, as a 'Vanilla' player wholly welcome them, not even for other players, but for myself.

I would also argue that some leveling improvements and class skill pacing does not suddenly open the flood gates to a whole new landscape of gamers. They're improvements, but they're somewhat marginal in their actual reach. The game is still fairly complex in its controls, concepts, and the amount of time it requires. Trust me, my Mom isn't going to suddenly say "Woah! Slightly faster leveling and better quest flow!? NOW I can actually play this game!" She's going to still have the camera pointed at the sky, shrieking and throwing her hands up in the air whenever she gets hit by an enemy. But she will play the hell out of some solitaire.

03/17/2011 12:43 PMPosted by Eudaemonea

Do tell. What is the value of a good grind?

It teaches people how to play their class correctly, which a large chunk of the player base seems to be clueless about once they reach end level.

That doesn't make any sense. Making someone repetitively kill mobs is going to teach them end-game dungeon and raid encounters/rotations?

03/17/2011 1:05 PMPosted by Anaideia

So there can be good grinds like "questing on rails"? If you want to ensure all grinds are removed then why does the LFD even exist? That function alone goes against your first statement.

There is no such thing as a "good grind". The definition of the word doesn't allow it. Being that grinds are subjective, it would be your opinion whether something is a grind or not.

You find the Dungeon Finder to be a grind, I assume in so far as you're entering dungeons repetitively to obtain rewards. The reason why that exists is that we don't have unlimited content. If every time you log in we could have a totally brand new dungeon for you to play, that would be awesome, but we don't. Our expectations for quality just doesn't make that idea feasible.

03/17/2011 1:05 PMPosted by Anaideia

I'm sorry, but Blizzard's definition of "improvement" isn't usually the same for gamers in general unless those gamers love Call of Duty (it's fun shooting people with the same engine for the last few games pew pew). But I understand you have to call it improvements.

A bite at Activision games? I don't get it.

That doesn't make any sense. Making someone repetitively kill mobs is going to teach them end-game dungeon and raid encounters/rotations?

Please explain to us then how leveling so fast helps the player learn their class well enough to perform in a group setting. If the player levels so fast that they only ever have to use 2 abilities to kill anything, how does that HELP them learn this game??

How does length of play equal difficulty and thus need to use additional skills? Have you leveled to 85 since Cataclysm? I have, without heirlooms. It isn't that much different. You blast through Outland but it certainly isn't any easier. And when was this magical time when leveling taught you how to raid? There is an un-made point there though. At one time the playerbase was pretty well spread out from 1-60, and in that time running dungeons was extremely lucrative. But very quickly there was a glut of people at level cap (as intended), and very few leveling. As the game gets bigger that problem gets more severe as people are even more dispersed and the chance to run dungeons and learn those skills while leveling gets smaller and smaller.

I agree there's a gap in the progression system where players just aren't taught how dungeon and raids are played. It's very different from leveling. But the game has never had that, only through the circumstances of having a new and smaller game did it occur. There's no fundamental change that caused it. But that's the argument, that it's suddenly different now through intentional game design changes. It isn't, but I think we'd agree that as the inherent problem gets worse it will need to be corrected at some point.

03/17/2011 3:07 PMPosted by Esmee

As the game gets bigger that problem gets more severe as people are even more dispersed and the chance to run dungeons and learn those skills while leveling gets smaller and smaller.

I've found that its easier than ever to find groups to run dungeons while leveling. Its definitely easier than at level cap. If anything, I think people get time spent working with groups more often now than ever before. I love the new leveling system. Its more diverse than ever. Get sick of questing, go run some dungeons, if you get sick of dungeons, go run some bgs. The queue's for these things are incredibly short. The story lines are incredible, and actually there now if you pay attention to them. I think blizz has done a great job when it comes to leveling.

Very good points. Very good. A pretty obvious improvement I left out. Using the Dungeon Finder while leveling is awesome, and it works really well. I feel like it's definitely a lucrative way to level, and leads to probably double the character power potential at any given time from blue's.

Regardless of that it seems like the sentiment is that people aren't using it, or aren't learning from it. That people screwing up in dungeons is somehow directly tied to their lack of dungeon experience while leveling. Obviously there are people doing dungeons while leveling, I just wonder what percentage, and if it's not very good, maybe there are some simple ways to encourage them to, or just make it a bit more lucrative (although they seem plenty awesome as-is).

03/17/2011 7:23 PMPosted by Autumnreign

I think the problem is that the lower-level dungeon content has been trivialized by a combination of better gear, BoA's, talent tree changes, etc. If the difficulty of the content were increased by about 4-6 levels (just retuning the mobs, while leaving the eligibility requirements for the instance alone), that might help the skill-gap that arises at end-game.

Water finds the path of least resistance, and players are largely no different. You up the difficulty, it no longer becomes a good way to level, they won't do it. It's being optimistic to think people will sit through challenge and wipes while leveling to learn skills for end-game. I wish it was the case, it just wouldn't be though.

Maybe if the difficulty was off-set by making the rewards that much better, but I don't think that would click for anyone. You'd wipe once, grumble, second wipe say screw this and jet to go back to questing. No one would stand for a nebulous "more challenging but better reward" when they know they can blast through quests and level at a continuous pace.

We do have solutions for the whole idea of training players up, but it's nothing we're ready to talk about just yet.

03/17/2011 7:40 PMPosted by Cithere

So is a bowel movement. :)

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