#0 - Sept. 17, 2007, 3:16 a.m.
Q u o t e:
What I am trying to say is that it is quite erroneous to compare classes since they are all different and is supposed to be different, but if a class has too many shortcomings fulfilling a role that it is intended to be able to fulfill, then by all means post about it... But be sure to skip the dramatization and instead go straight to the point, be precise and also try to give concrete examples and documentation of the shortcomings in play.
We as a community have discussed the class comparisons to death, we have suggested idea after idea, we are even at the point of recycling some of them on a regular basis. Now while some of these things apply to all paladin specs, there context is not necessarily the same, which is why I wanted to tackle Retribution on its own.
Hopefully I can do that without comparing other class abilities or making a single suggestion. I should also point out that im basing this on possible 41/20 talent point splits, whether its 20 into Holy or 20 into Protection, hopefully keeping with Blizzards idea of balance.
Healing
Now while we have healing as a base line, we have no clear indication that its supposed to be part of Retribution play. I like to think and hope it is, I want it to be part of what we are, but not define who we are.
Given that, beyond a 15 point talent in the protection tree we have nothing that helps what has always been a bane, spell lock and counter spell effects. By speccing into that talent we lose the ability to spec Spiritual focus, and while it is a personal choice, I do not believe its a fair choice. By making that choice its a lose lose situation either way, while we do gain a reduction in CS effects, we lose knockback on casting immunity. If we get knockback immunity, we lose the reduction in CS effects.
The reason its a lose lose situation is that as a Retribution paladin, when we do heal it needs to be a quick effective combat heal. Not having knockback immunity means we lose casting time, not having CS reduction we lose time between casts, as well as the initial cast itself. Depending on our opponent we either need one or the other.
For example, Warriors, Rogues, Warlocks, Shamans & Mages can be particularly brutal in this area, having both the ability to knockback the cast and interupt it, with Hunters causing problems on knockback due to their pets. In other words its an inherant weakness in the spec, no matter where we spend those extra 20 points.
Removable Buffs & Debuffs
We rely on magical effects to boost our damage as well as actually do damage. All of these effects, even Vengeance, can be dispelled, purged and now stolen. Again while a solution has been provided, it requires spending 20 point into the Protection tree, while at the same time it allows a solution to counter spell, because we are unable to take Spiritual Focus it still leaves us open to knockback on casting, again removing the ability for quick effective combat heal.
The solution itself is a 30% chance, given that our damage boost abilities, our debuffs, our combat system, our crowd control and our procs are all subject to being removed 30% is very weak when taken in that context. It often leaves us weakened and having to recast buffs using not only mana that we need, but also using up a global cooldown, and against some classes helps our opponents.
The argument could be made, and skirting close to making a suggestion, that because we have buffs that benefit all our team mates, and our debuffs do the same, that 30% isnt weak, but why does it have to be 30% for our buffs on us.
For example, Priests, Shamans & Warlocks can be particularly brutal in this area, having the ability to not only remove most of our combat system but also either leaving us weakened or subject to mana burn in one form or another.
Auras & Cleanse - GCD's
We have several auras for both defensive and offensive moves, as well as having cleanse to remove several different types of effect from us. The problem is that they trigger a global cooldown, now the odd GCD here and there is not a problem, however if we were to use our auras to switch between two or three auras, which would help immensly against a lot of classes, as well as using cleanse to remove the multiple buffs that stack and are hard to remove due to our opponents talents would mean that we would be unable to actually use any other abilities due to being locked up by constant GCD's.
We are left having to choose a single aura for a fight, and if lucky we may be able to change it part way through, but for example switching from Shadow Resistance to Improved Concentration requires knowledge of forsight on when we will need that aura otherwise we cannot cast a quick effective combat heal. So this leaves us in the position of choosing an aura, which can not only make a talented aura redundant but also make a quick effective combat heal ineffective, the other option being a damage reduction aura with no guarantee of an actual damage reduction, merely a chance to reduce damage.
Virtually all classes cause us problems in this area, some not only having multiple schools of damage, but also multiple debuffs, as well as having spell interupts. Taken together with the problems of healing and the problems of buff removal there seems little point in these abilities in TBC PvP.
Melee Range
Getting into melee range against a ranged class is a feat of luck and skill in itself with a Retribution paladin. While we do gain the advantage of Pursuit of Justice, that advantage is quickly lost with a simple enchant or gem. Our abilities that help, JoJ2, requires us to be practically in melee range to use it, and BoF has a cooldown longer than duration, and both are removable. BoF doesnt give a speed boost so we can still be kited, and if we finally close that gap, we are CC'd and it starts all over again, having already taken a lot of damage.
All ranged classes cause us problems in this area, they can if they so wish, easily keep us at a distance, even when we use DS as a way to close range without taking damage, as soon as it ends we are subject to the same punishment.
Controllable Damage
We are a high crit requirement proc based damage class who's effective crit is capped below 20% given current gear and resilience. So we lose out on crits, our big damage seal is an unreliable proc, our big damage judgement requires a stunned opponent to be truly effective, all that coupled with the fact that we need our combat system not being removed or locked up with GCD's and also being in melee range to do it. The unreliability of the damage also has a knock on effect on whether we heal or not, attempt to heal or hope that we crit and proc, its a gamble either way on whether we will be successful.
Divine Shield
Finally we come to the late great DS. A solution to many of the above problems, an all purpose cleanse that can help you gain distance unscathed, and leaving you immune to dispels and counter spells. The problem of course is that it doesnt work, other people have learnt to circumvent DS, either by keeping range, or using the opportunity to heal themselves. Not of course forgetting that DS itself is subject to dispel, and while not a function of the game mechanics can be purged and spell stolen because its still bugged.
Another problem with DS is of course the cooldown, and skirting dangerously close to class comparisons, but in TBC other cooldowns are much shorter, and the duration of the TBC PvP trinkets would indicate that a 2-3 minute cooldown period is being used for the purposes of PvP balance.
Once DS is gone of course, not only are we afflicted with forbearance but our one and only semi - reliable "oh no button" is gone, and we are once again at the mercy of dispel, counter spell etc. and at the mercy of a 5 minute cooldown.
Summary
Thats about as concise as I can put it, I did my best not to compare to other classes, I gave precise problems and who we have problems against. As you can see, we have multiple "shortcomings in play" against the vast majority of classes, so I ask again why do Retribution paladins have to have so many weaknesses?
Its not even a case of weak in one area against one class, weak in another area against a different class, its multiple weaknesses against multiple classes! The entire spec is based on luck and gambling, there is no real control in the spec and I am reminded of something said by Blizzard about CC, they didnt want players losing control of their characters. Well speccing Retribution is all about losing control, its one of, if not the most luck reliant specs from start to finish.
This isnt the first time I have done this, its not the first time its been done by anyone, and I doubt it will be the last. Of course Blizzard could simply say that balancing every spec for every part of the game is not a priority, but they have also said that Retribution is the PvP damage tree, so if its not balanced for general PvP, arena PvP or either, then do they not consider that only having a healing spec of a primary melee class balanced for PvP is a priority that needs addressing?
I really hope that we can get some decent feedback about retribution PvP, I know that the Devs current priority lies with making Retribution & Protection more PvE viable and I commend that. But with the upcoming nerfs to Retribution PvP, please spare a thought for those of us who enjoy PvP with our Ret paladins, please dont neglect that aspect of Retribution.
Conclusion 1 - http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=771470160&postId=9119595635&sid=1#474
Conclusion 2 - http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=771470160&postId=9119595635&sid=1#475