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Regional FlagEyonix the Paladin Asks QuestionsSource
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#0 - 2007/12/03 01:24:58 AM
TLDR Factor

I have much to say, so I'm trying to format this to make an easy read for those who lose interest as the number of text in a given post increases.

Quick Background

As most of you know, I had a paladin in the works, I created a new Blood Elf Paladin two weeks ago today, (I did so because I wanted to be on the same realm/faction as my Troll Shaman). I am now nearing level 43, which I'm quite happy with considering there were also a few days I didn't have time to login and play.

Why Post Here?

As a Community Manager who has unlimited access to all design information, and obviously has a strong knowledge of all classes, why gather information from you all and ask "n00b" questions? I am very familiar with all classes, and do continue to gain from my regular interaction with design, as well as grow from my own research and play-experience -- not to mention the amount of feedback I do gather from reading all class forums.

With that being said, my goal is to know as much as humanly possible. In order to do so, talking to you all from one paladin player to another gives me additional insight. I'm not going to lie, while not a primary motivation -- it's also really nice to just have regular discussion.

Enough, Eyonix! What are your Questions???

We're going to start out with one at a time (partially for ease of reading, but also because I believe it's imporant that I offer one last important bit of background for all questions to come)...

I was leveling as retribution until level 40 and having a great deal of fun. One thing that is important to note here is that my goal with this character at 70 is to be protection and operate as a tank. Not only have I always wanted a paladin, tanking is the final frontier for me. My main for two years was a healing priest; my druid and shaman (though both have been specced healing) are caster dps. My shaman for quite some time was also enhancement, i.e. melee dps.

At 40 (retribution) I decided to try tanking SM Cathedral and as a result went to level up my sword skill from 23, using a equal level green shield and sword. Once skilled up, I noticed my damage was actually still fairly competitive, and while not as high, I required noticeably less downtime. I did my research that many players find protection (provided you adjust your play-style accordingly) to be the fastest paladin leveling spec but typically from what I've read that is at level 50+.

I respeced full protection, and got myself a nice quick one-handed sword and from what I can tell I kill within the ballbark of the same time of being retribution, it's more steady and reliable, but most importantly I was tracking how many even level mobs I could kill before having to drink and eat and it averaged (after numerous tests) 24. Lastly, it's also nice to level as the spec that you'd like to be at end-game.

Eyonix?!?!?!

Okay, okay... Question: 1) What are your opinions as to which is the faster leveling spec, at 40+ and At 50+?

(FYI)- I realize that this was tons of background for just two small questions but it all paved the way for many of my questions to come.

Thanks to all three of you who had it in you to read this far!!! :

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#126 - 2007/12/03 02:26:20 AM
Q u o t e:
Okay, personally I didn't level as protection.

At the time I was leveling, many people just said "Ret to 60" and so that's what I did.

Now, however, it seems like going prot at your level is the thing to do.

You can pull a large number of mobs and fair quite well against them, compared to the one-target retribution route.

I leveled 60-70 as holy, because I pretty much leveled through instances. Currently, if you have the +healing, the healing -> spell damage is quite nice, but protection is still the way to go.


What's exciting for me, and I'm well aware that this could change later, is that right now, I am not killing multiple mobs at once, but rather one at a time much like when I was retribution. Knowing that later protection begins to allow for the paladin to quickly solo multiple mobs at once makes me feel like it's only going to get better.

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#139 - 2007/12/03 02:37:30 AM
Q u o t e:
I kind of wish Eyonix would let us know why he made a thread asking for opinions, and then another thread asking a question, all to simply ask what's the best spec to level? I mean, I understand he said it's the first in things to come, but honestly, if you just need to questions as to "How To Paladin," it's really easy to just post on a normal toon and get those answered. I mean, this may be a somewhat deperessing forum, but we make sure to answer most questions like that. Maybe Eyonix could enlighten us as to why all the drama for an easy question?


I'm not trying to call you out or be a jerk but everything you are wondering was said in my original post here. I think it was TLDR for you, which I agree it was rather long.

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#146 - 2007/12/03 02:43:13 AM
Next question:

My talent build: Please review.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?0000000000000000000005302133203001523010000000000000000000000000

What are your thoughts. Keep in mind, this is NOT me building an end-game tank spec, but rather building an extremely viable tank spec for leveling dungeons that also allows me to kill at a respectable pace, and most important needs little down time.

Lastly, I do not plan to begin aoe grining mobs until around level 50.

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#166 - 2007/12/03 02:52:00 AM
Q u o t e:


Perhaps, but I answered your question on page one, so perhaps this thread is TLDR for you my friend. My follow up was merely afterthoughts on the stupidity of the thread, and the stupidity of getting the community all a fluster for a simple question, and a question that had been asked four separate times on the front page of our forums when you asked it (Granted, not specifically for that level, but for leveling in general).

I have no problems answering your question, as I have, but yet again you avoided really enlightening us as to why your causing such a fuss. Wasn't it you who said that if you came around to deciding to ask us something, that you would indeed tell us why? Instead, you merely left more questions. Sorry if I offended you, and I'm really not concerned with whether or not you think I'm a jerk. I just feel the way you presented this question, along with all of the drama you brought with it, was a little odd.


I really think overall, this has been a positive experience for both myself and the community. I saw very little "drama". I've been doing this a long time -- every blue post will cause drama, it's the nature of the beast. Also, I never stated I thought you were a jerk, my fear was that my response to you would sound as though I were being a jerk, which was not my intent.

I did read your reply, and thank you. My point in responding to your other comment was to state that all of the things you wondered were explained in my original post. Such as, why I asked such a basic question though the information is already available, and how it's not my only question -- that I'm simply opening a dialogue.

I gave much insight into my goals and intentions and I regret nothing. I'm part of WoW's forum community because it's what I enjoy, and were I to leave Blizzard tomorrow, that fact wouldn't change.

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#175 - 2007/12/03 02:57:19 AM
Q u o t e:


Looks fine.

Edit: Actually, imp hammer of justice is of limited use for a tanking build, you may want to max anticipation.


I'll think about this certainly, but I do find it handy for spell interrupts, damage mitigation and occasionally to heal immediately after using the ability to not waste my shields.

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#184 - 2007/12/03 03:02:01 AM
Q u o t e:


The biggest problem Eyonix, is your missing Guardians Favor.

Guardians Favor is AWESOME and invaluable to act as Paladins legendary "second taunt".

With RD being on a 15 second cooldown, we have far too many periods where theres a gap between when we need to pull something off some one who inadvertently pulled aggro or for encounters where aggro drops. This helps gap the bridges.

Further, Guardians Favor gives paladins more opportunities to breaks fears. Blessing of freedom is also very much needed for encounters where we have high possibilities of being rooted and preventing us from getting to the enemies we're tanking.

So yea, this is needed.


Thanks, this is a very good point.

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#187 - 2007/12/03 03:03:27 AM
Q u o t e:
only suggestion I have is stop leveling it while you can and level a druid unless you already have one.


My Druid is level 70, yeah.

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#204 - 2007/12/03 03:10:51 AM
Next two questions:

1) I realize that this is somewhat situational as is the purpose of paladin blessings (which I love, btw). The question is when should I be casting blessing of kings on myself vs. blessing of sanctuary. Give me examples that include both solo PvE and group PvE.

2) Righteous Defense - this may be due in part or full to my own inexperience but it seemed awkward to use (flawlessly that is) when I was tanking in SM. Selecting the player portrait, hitting the button while trying to keep track of everything else, etc...

Any tips there, or LRN2PLY?




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#279 - 2007/12/03 03:56:27 AM
First, thanks -- everyone. Honestly. Beyond what you've provided me, I can promise you that there have been and will continue to be new players who will also really benefit from the information offered in this thread. The thread remaining incredibly positive, will also surely attract those who would normally be intimated by some of the negativity found in various threads.

In any case, I'm going to check the thread tomorrow and will likely continue with questions/comments as the week progress. As I get more tanking experience (after of course leveling to 70), I'd like to open up dialogue concerning my own experiences.

On a final note, once I have my paladin to 70, I will have all four healing capable classes level capped. :)

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#304 - 2007/12/03 04:13:58 AM
Q u o t e:


While I kept my former post rather civil, I completely agree with your complaint in this one.

How can somebody who is supposedly constantly gathering our feedback on this forum never have heard of a Righteous Defense macro? It is posted literally every single day, multiple times in multiple threads. It's mind boggling.

Unless he was just trying to get a rise out of me (us) to post useful information like I did in my above post. In which case, completely forgiven ^_^


Even if I hadn't seen the righteous defense macros, which I have (but you'll believe what you want to believe), I think it's far to say I'm more than experienced with this game, particularly end-game raiding content, that I'd know such a macro could be easily created. My question, was more is there "something I'm missing" when using the ability, i.e. am I using it properly.

Also, I won't macro an ability until I've learned to use it "as is", because I feel it's neccessary in order to really master every aspect of a class/spec, even if it means taking the hard path for a little while.

Concerning your last comment, my first post really did explain my goal(s) with creating this Q&A, and it wasn't just so I could learn more.

I want to finish this response by saying that I mean you no disrespect, it's just that voicing/supporting assumptions can be very harmful and it's wise to be careful.

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#625 - 2007/12/04 09:04:41 PM
Thanks for all of the great information. This post is actually one of the better discussion threads I've seen -- ever. Tonight when I play, I'm going to be experimenting with grabbing multiple mobs at the same time to level. As far as pre-bc stats, while leveling to 58, what would you all suggest in terms of priority. I was thinking:

Stamina
Intelligence
Strength
Defense
Agility

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#769 - 2008/02/26 11:19:19 AM
Q u o t e:
So, I guess he quit playing his moonkin because the class has horrible itemization and talent problems.


Actually just in a conversation with someone earlier, that my balance druid was by far the most enjoyable dps class/spec I've ever played.

Also, I never "quit" a class. I have many reasons I move on to focus on another class, and its never had to do with a lack of enjoyment, or frustration resulting from areas I found problematic.


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#773 - 2008/02/26 12:06:34 PM
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You say that you didn't quit the class nor stop playing due to frustrations with problematic areas.
Can that be taken as you agree there are certain problems with the class ?

I'm not trying to push anything but it would be nice to know that its still seen as a work in progress...


All classes are a work in progress, friend. That doesn't mean any class is "unfinished". Our design team will simply never be satisfied with any area the game. Our goal is to make this game the best it can be in every area imaginable.

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#792 - 2008/02/26 04:36:58 PM
Q u o t e:


I do have something of a tangential question, if you wouldn't mind answering it. You said earlier you found that, with prot around level 40, you could kill single mobs about as fast as you could with ret, and with less down time. Do you, as someone intimately familiar with the design team, consider this an inherent problem? I ask only because, as a ret player reading that, it does seem unfair to me.. but there are many, many things that go on in the design process that I'm sure I don't know as a player.


You're missing some key factors. My playstyle had to be adjusted accordingly to where I couldn't really quest without my leveling slowing down dramatically, as I had to focus on the grind style of leveling for protection to be faster than retribution. I basically had to seek out melee only mobs that were also in congested groups.

Things also slowed down quite a bit once I hit outland, unless I was aoe grinding. My single target dps was laughable. Retribution has also seem improvements since I was level 39 on my paladin. To be honest, if I wasn't planning on being protection end-game (as I always enjoy to level my preferred end-game spec), I would've been retribution until the end.

In short, no I do not see any inherent design problems here. =)