WotLK - 10 v. 25 - Blue Tracker

#0 - July 16, 2008, 3:01 p.m.

I have a number of thoughts about WotLK, and I am posting them in that forum. Because of the far greater number who read in this forum, I will also post them here for whatever value you may find them. Because of the inability of most to deal with anything of any length, I will restrict my posts to one point each and post them as I complete them.

The point of this one is to commend Blizzard for the concept of 10 man raiding being given more importance, and to suggest that it be given even more than is apparently currently contemplated.

The huge problem with large scale raiding is logistical. Finding 24 others for something that takes so much time, effort and expense, with the RNG system still in place is difficult. It was more difficult when it was finding 39 others, but back then it was very clear that the best rewards far and away were only from such raiding, and the encounters were such that a number of players in the raid could be poor, could be afk, could disconnect, could have lag, etc., and you could still overcome the encounter.

Now it is easier to find 24 others than 39 others, but the encounters are such that they are far less forgiving of poor players, afk players, players who DC, who lag, and etc. And, Arena up until at least very recently gave arguably better rewards for substantially less time, effort and expense, and there was no RNG to deal with in respect to rewards.

There is no doubt a lower limit to which Blizzard can go, and still keep the epic feel to the encounters. But if we take Kara, we can see that it can be done on a level at least as low as 10. In my view the best instance in the game right now, all things considered and thinking in terms of the entire player base, has to be Kara. I have cleared BT and MH, met all the goals I set for TBC, have all Tier 6 quality gear, and I still enjoy running Kara every week. In fact, I now run it on 3 characters each week, and as soon as I get more to level 70, they also shall be running it.

I think if a fair vote were taken of those who actually raid, and assuming you made the content as challenging for 10 mans as 25 mans, the clear majority would prefer 10 mans. You can far easier get 9 others to raid with than 24, you are more likely to get compatible players, and you can even more easily get PuGs.

25 man raids SHOULD drop more drops, 2.5 times more to be exact, than the 10 man version.
But assuming Blizzard can in fact make them equally challenging and not easier, then there is no good reason I see for (1) making the loot ANY better in quality in the 25 man as compared to the 10 man, and (2) for making it so the 10 mans only get opened AFTER someone does the 25 mans.

Why should the 25 man raids, which are no more difficult, except in terms of logistics, be rewarded BETTER QUALITY of gear as opposed to GREATER QUANTITY of gear?

Why should the 10 mans only become available AFTER the instance has been done on the 25 man level?

Blizzard, imo you are taking a truly great idea, a truly great innovation, and ruining it. Please, please.....rethink this.

Bornakk

#49 - July 16, 2008, 5:13 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Why should the 25 man raids, which are no more difficult, except in terms of logistics, be rewarded BETTER QUALITY of gear as opposed to GREATER QUANTITY of gear?

The 25 person raid dungeons are likely to have more difficult encounters, on top of the logistical aspect, because with more players available there will be more things going on that they will have to adapt to.

I'm curious though, since both 10 person and 25 person dungeons will have their own progression lines, why do people doing only 10 person dungeons need to have their loot match the 25 person dungeons? The goal is to have the items dropped from the 10 person versions be fully sufficient to gear up and allow a group to continue progressing without forcing you into the 25 person version (and vice versa).

Q u o t e:
Why should the 10 mans only become available AFTER the instance has been done on the 25 man level?

We haven't made a final decision on how one will affect the other. Stay tuned for more details in the future.

Q u o t e:
Blizzard, imo you are taking a truly great idea, a truly great innovation, and ruining it. Please, please.....rethink this.

We always appreciate feedback from our players and we will see if any changes are needed based on feedback we receive in the future.

Bornakk

#61 - July 16, 2008, 6:05 p.m.

Q u o t e:

Thank you for the response.

About the gear/rewards....I want to see all the game, and it does seem Blizzard is making that possible. I cannot speak for others, but if I knew that I could obtain gear with more capability from doing the 25 mans than from doing the 10 mans, I would feel a need to do the 25 mans.

You seem to ask why, since I would get to see the game via 10 mans. Well, if I got the better gear, then farming and helping friends would be easier, my character would be “more progressed”, and the reality of the game is that a character whose armory shows them with more powerful gear is generally seen as having achieved more in the game, and as being more progressed.

True, such “achievement” can be belittled, can be said to be immaterial, and can be said to be of value solely in an egotistical way. But, part of the enjoyment of the game for me is overcoming it and reaching the top levels. I would not feel I had done that, if when I finished the 10 mans, there were better and higher rewards I could get for doing the 25 mans.

Maybe its just me, maybe its egotistical, but for me it is still part of the fun of the game.

I understand where you are coming from, so if getting the best gear in the game is a goal that you really enjoy doing, is the issue not being able to find 24 other people to do it with?

You could try and find a group of people right when the expansion launches and hit the 25 person dungeons at the start, or maybe go for just the 10 person dungeons at the start and after those are all cleared work on getting together and going through the 25 person versions.

It sounds like you want to accomplish everything from a PvE perspective so the time and effort will have to be there to go all the way on it.

Bornakk

#70 - July 16, 2008, 6:25 p.m.

Q u o t e:

Do you really not see an issue with setting such a gear gap like the current arena system. ITs really stupid to give such advantages to people unless there is a small difference of say 10Item levels.

What advantages do you encounter relating to this? I'm just curious based on your personal play experience.

I'm a little confused on your example as well because we have said previously that the gear difference will be about 1 tier and yet you say it like 10 item levels is vastly different than this.

Q u o t e:
The Current Gearing system is so broken its not even funny and you guys better shape the hell up and fix it for this new expansion.

We added a lot of item related things like the Arena and Badges of Justice in The Burning Crusade. After seeing how these things worked out we have a much better grasp on these things and we feel they will work out smoother when we have more solid plans involving them from the very launch of Wrath of the Lich King.

Bornakk

#126 - July 16, 2008, 7:21 p.m.

Q u o t e:
Absolutely some top notch thought and posts in this thread. And thanks for the blue responses.

It makes sense that the gear rewards need to be slightky better, because otherwise, who would do 25 man raids.

Therein is a point. Given the chance to see the game from either a 10 man or a 25 man raid route......and given that the difficulty would be roughly the same.....except logistically....and that the gear rewards would be the same....most everyone would agree that the great majority would prefer the 10 man route.

I do not think Blizzard would lose money if it abandoned 25 man raids entirely. In fact, I think it would make more money.

So why not just spend the resources on MORE and BETTER 10 man raids, and just forget the 25 man raids?

For one, removing an aspect of the game doesn't sound like a fun solution to anything. Also, we are planning these separate progression paths from the very beginning of Wrath of the Lich King and while I can't guarantee any kind of timelines, this will help things run smoother throughout the cycle of content patches.