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Regional FlagHealer Nerfs??Source
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Bloodbone
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#1 - 2011/01/12 04:24:00 PM
As a tank I am more than a little perplexed as to why you are nerfing healers?

This just makes no sense to me, I see healers OOM and I see regen nerfs in the notes.

I see healers fall behind when there is AoE damage, and you nerf AoE heals in the notes.

What is this some PvP drivin nightmare?



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#15 - 2011/01/12 04:42:00 PM
We're currently in a position on the PTR where we can test and see how changes are affecting the various classes. We're still working to make changes that benefit the game without suddenly putting things into full tilt. The decisions being made are about what we see as being potentially more beneficial without being "too much". That includes whether or not the mana regen really matters in comparison to being able to do more healing etc. The question becomes, if you're able to put out a bit more healing for the mana cost than you were doing before, is the mana regen boost worth it or is it just adding "too much?"

As this is on the PTR currently, the answers will be found there with testing. I highly suggest loading it up and providing constructive feedback on your experiences there so that we can take a look at your experiences, match them with what others are experiencing, and then take a look at our own numbers and experiences to see where they line up or go off kilter.

We're still in the process of making changes and adjustments (and will continue to do so even after it's live as necessary) and really like getting the constructive feedback now while we can still make these adjustments. We may not always agree with you, but please don't doubt that we're not at least rolling the ideas and thoughts you all have around in our heads a bit before saying, "no."

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#29 - 2011/01/12 04:58:27 PM

Maybe we wouldn't be so upset if we thought there was someone at Blizzard that had half a brain and realized that Holy Specced priest are all ready in the toilet healing wise and mana regen wise - that is until you are in the best of the best gear! Not all of us have the luxuary of being in the elite guilds and can run 24/7 raids and dungeons needed to obtain such gear. Or did that just slip your minds?


Shaelaura, I'm sorry you feel this way. I understand that you feel frustrated and as if the developers aren't paying attention to your concerns, but I assure you, they definitely have more than half a brain otherwise they wouldn't be very ambulatory or be able to rub enough words together to communicate to develop the game. ;)

We absolutely understand that not everyone is in an elite guild. Not all of us are in "elite" guilds either. We're doing what we can to keep that in mind while still keeping the level of challenge at a point that people can appreciate and enjoy.

I understand that you feel that Holy priests are "in the toilet" healing wise, but from speaking to those I know who are specced so, I'm not finding this to be their sentiment. I'd very much value hearing your constructive and detailed account of what issues you are experiencing so that we can see if perhaps there is something we need to do, or if there is something that we can help you with understanding better (as far as design philosophy and intention.)

I wish you nothing but the best and hopefully we can find a point at which you and many others like you can find the "fun" factor that you're looking for.

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#44 - 2011/01/12 05:25:22 PM
01/12/2011 9:11 AMPosted by Shaelaura


"Fun" is something that some guy at Blizzard wrote on a chalk board and put a line through. It's all about challenge and frustration now. Fun - people at Blzzard forgot what fun is.


We don't use chalk boards, but perhaps I saw it on a dry-erase board once. ;)

I assure you, we haven't forgotten what fun is. It may simply be that our definition of fun and your definition of fun are not in agreement.

I'm in no means trying to be hostile toward you. I'm still trying to find out from you what it is in particular that you're having issues with. You haven't been very specific as of yet, and have mostly been hostile in your choice of language, which I assume simply means you're upset and frustrated. I get that. What I still don't know is the "why" in specific terms. Neither I, nor anyone in this community can help you with your concerns if you aren't more specific as to what it is that is causing you such distress.

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#191 - 2011/01/12 07:45:01 PM
01/12/2011 11:19 AMPosted by Helenà
I assure you, we haven't forgotten what fun is. It may simply be that our definition of fun and your definition of fun are not in agreement.


Perhaps someone at Blizzard needs to be reminded that our idea of fun is what makes us subscribe, frustration and annoyance makes us decide we want to do something else.


I simply meant that person's individual idea of what they found fun. I can't possibly know what every individual thinks is fun and while we strive to provide fun to every possible person, it is completely within reason to think that perhaps what we're finding as fun may not be the same for every single person. Also, keep in mind that we're looking at more than just what we believe is fun. We have to make decisions about what we think may be fun, and then put it out there to see what everyone else thinks. If we're seeing a lot of people saying, "Hey this isn't fun." then we need to assess, how many people think that way and why do they think that way. We're not designing this solely for our own pleasure by any means. It was a simplification of the concept, but fun means so many things to so many people that we have to start defining it somewhere and hope we're hitting the mark somewhere close to dead center.

I am also not in any way shape or form trying to be condescending or telling people "learn to play". All anyone on our end is trying to do is let you know what we're thinking and why we're thinking it and then listening to what you have to say about that.

The PTR has provided us a lot in the past from bug fixes to balance changes based on how people are playing the game and the feedback they provide. That in mind though, it's possible that bugs get through because not everyone may see the bug or experience and report it. It may be something difficult to duplicate. Not all feedback may be in agreement or mesh with what can work in the game without breaking other things. And sometimes, the situation can be more complex than simply making a small tweak to one thing without it needing more hands on coding time or without breaking other things.

So, yes, it's valuable. While it's not perfect (because things can sometimes show themselves in live when millions are playing) it's a good indicator of potentially larger issues that can and should be corrected.

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#319 - 2011/01/13 01:06:43 AM
I've been continuing to read the responses and would like to remind everyone, that if people didn't care, they wouldn't be here posting. So, to those participating in the discussion, thank you for your time and care. It's always appreciated.

Now I'll try to address some things where I can.

There was a blue post that said it was a correction and not a nerf, but it was not clear whether the blue was posting as to the present Lightwell or as to the apparent nerf on the ptr.


This was, indeed, a correction to the tooltip and not a change to Lightwell. It has not been nerfed in the next patch and while there have been some changes done, they should predominantly result in better healing overall (in relation to priests). To check out the hotfixes that were implemented prior to the PTR, you can see them here. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/1232869 You'll notice Lightwell's health was boosted up by 50%.

The change we are making are a little bit like balancing scales. We trim a little on one side and add to the other. If you look through the PTR notes ( http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2011384 ) closely, you'll see this within them.

Currently, Holy has a lot of mana on live, but to counter the change we're making to Prayer of Healing, we're buffing Circle of Healing. We’re making Chakra easier to use. We’re also giving you the option to make Prayer of Mending a little better. Holy on live is pretty strong overall.

As we said in the Wow, Dungeons are Hard blog, ( http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2053469 ) any Holy priest with 1700 to 1800 Spirit shouldn’t have mana problems. If they do, something else is going on such as dps being too low or players taking too much avoidable damage. You can reach those numbers without ever stepping into a raid. Finish Twilight Highlands. Get the Cord of the Raven Queen epic belt from being Exalted with the Guardians of Hyjal – you’ll be Revered just by completing the Hyjal quests. Max out your Tailoring and make yourself some better gear or just buy some from another player. Get the Mandala of Stirring Patterns trinket from Tol Barad (the quest area – it doesn’t require setting foot in the PvP area). Look for Sprit enchants. Reforging is your friend. Reforge everything to Spirit until you feel that you won’t run out of mana.

Keep in mind, you're not alone in the dungeon and the dps and tanks also need to take responsibility for what they are doing and how much of your mana they are requiring you to use. You also don't need to keep everyone topped off. You just need to anticipate the damage and adjust accordingly.

We want people to pick and choose the spells and abilities they need to use in correlation to the events going on in the game. If someone still has Prayer of Mending on them and they haven't taken damage yet, do you need to recast it? Does someone need a shield or renew vs. a full heal? Can you use something else in your bag of tricks that you normally would just bypass as "useless" that would instead by useful in a certain situation? Can you use binding heal? You may just need to cast a high expense spell to get the job done, but if you have the mana to do so, why not? Those spells are meant to have use.

I've also looked into Discipline in light of the change to Prayer of Healing. In general, there shouldn't be a time that there is so much AoE damage that everyone is going to need it immediately. Raids may be a little different, but you should have plenty of support from other healers as well at that point.

The cost of shield may have gone up, but so has the damage mitigation for it, though in light of Cataclysm, damage mitigation isn't all a Discipline priest needs to do anymore. They need to be in there, mixing it up and healing versus just using a few spells. Don't forget you also have Power Word:Barrier if you can convince people not to run away from the glow y dome of goodness.

Divine Aegis was also buffed a bit and with Inner Fire should help with Prayer of Healing.

Keep in mind, this is just a short list of changes, and the rest can be found on the PTR notes and more are being added practically daily at this point. Changes are still ongoing as well. Continuing to provide constructive feedback on these changes and how you've been experiencing them (for those that go on the PTR) is always very helpful.

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#400 - 2011/01/13 05:09:53 PM
01/13/2011 4:11 AMPosted by Contesa

I understand that you're trying to help but think about how this sounds in the big picture. This is the expansion where epics are supposed to feel epic again. Yet here you are advocating priests grind the faction, tailoring+mats or gold, and Tol Barad dailies to get 3 epics before they run Heroic Dungeons. Not raids, dungeons. That doesn't seem right to me.


This holds true for all classes. There is a way to get the gear you need to be successful in Heroics. You don't need to immediately jump into Heroics at 329 either, but can get some great items from reputations and crafted items that will help you succeed a bit better.

Also, I think I muddled things a little bit when I was pointing out the DA buff. What I was trying to say (and poorly at the time) was that currently, Disc has a pretty strong Prayer of Healing because of DA and Inner Focus. Granted, it will be slightly less strong with the PoH change, but there is a Grace buff to 4.0.6 will make you better when healing multiple targets with normal heals as well. (No longer applies to just a single target.)

We believe that Discipline is looking solid in the PTR, and again, would welcome those who want to test it and provide constructive feedback on it.

As for the comment about having other healers around in Raids- Of course you'll have additional healing help for those big AoE damage fights. It's a Raid which has more players in it and thus more room for additional healers. I don't think any healer could expect to solo heal a Raid and be successful and if they can, then it's something we would have to look at.

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#422 - 2011/01/13 07:08:39 PM
01/13/2011 10:19 AMPosted by Ebolajoe

Neth, can you do us disc priests a favor? Just ask the dev team to take a 2nd look at raid healing for disc. Maybe mention in passing that Holy Nova or PoM could be buffed in discs favor. Or... well I'm sure they can come up with something. We'd much appreciate it ;)


We're keeping an eye on things and I'll be spending some time on the PTR as well (for what that's worth). I believe that Discipline won't be bad off once these changes are in and people have the appropriate gear and stats (don't forget to reforge, enchant, and gem). We'll keep watching for constructive feedback and keep working toward finding that sweet spot between difficulty and fun.