Post 9138 build Nax WWS Parse (Ret Fails)

I looked at that parse and I have my own thoughts about it. I am more interested in seeing your analysis of it. If Ret was working where you wanted it, where do you think it would be on that list? I'm just trying to get a feel for what you think is the magnitude of the delta we're talking about.

I don't hear anyone defending the rogue who was low in a lot of these fights. You have to make a lot of assumptions that all of these players had equivalent gear and skill in order to have the expectation that this paladin should be in the top 5. Someone said this was a very skilled paladin, so I guess we'll have to take your word for that.

The use of consumables, especially things like Dark Runes is interesting. It's too bad we can't calculate what his dps would have been without the consumables. You don't gain that much mana from the consumables, but as you point out, it could make a difference.

Consecrate is a very mana-intensive spell. I'm not sure I would use it except when tanking or in a mana-rich situation. Many if not all classes have abilities that they know are not damage efficient for their cost. Sometimes you want to use these anyway depending on the situation.

There does seem to be a consensus that in an undead dungeon, every Ret pally should be at the very top of the charts. Is that what you're arguing? Oops -- I meant to add that Exorcism + Holy Wrath was about 6% of his damage, though he would have spent some of that mana on other things if there had been no undead.

Q u o t e:
I wouldn't actually say I'm arguing "top" but I'd say "much closer to it." A paladin glyphed and ready to fight undead with equal gear and equal skill should be falling closer to within 1-2% (possibly 3%?) of his "pure" counterparts, rather than the usual 5%. Frankly, if it comes down to a choice, from a player's standpoint I'd rather be 5% below across the boards at all times than 2% below against undead and 20% below the rest of the time. Yes, that's an exaggeration. I know you love them so.

So if this parse had the paladin in the number 3 spot, we wouldn't be having this conversation? How many Naxx parses have to come out that way? All of them? How do we determine which are the parses made my compentent players and which aren't? (I don't mean any disrespect to this raid in particular - it's clear from a little digging that many of these were very competent players.)

Q u o t e:
For the last time, being 8th-12th out of 12 DPS is NOT MIDDLE unless you're from the culture that reads backwards.

So we should buff Mutilate rogues, because clearly they aren't always near the top.

My point is that you have to be very careful anaylzing data. You can't just look at the parts that support your argument and ignore the rest.

Q u o t e:
For the last time look at the actual damage done, not the placement, he was middle. Seriously, though, you guys would really want the devs balancing off placement numbers? He is within 1% DPS of 2-3 people, thats within a very very small statistical variance.

I think this conclusion has some validity.

Q u o t e:
That parse seems to show that perhaps a certain spec of rogue needs a nerf and another could use a buff, that warlocks could use a little PvE love (although it may be a bit early for that since they could just be getting used to their new rotations) and that Frost DKs are doing too much dps (since I was under the impression that they were supposed to be trading some dps for the additional utility similar to Frost mages).

Also agree with this (again given the limits of one parse).

Q u o t e:
Well, I did. Indirectly. I'm not sure if you read my post, but I said Paladins should be within 5% of the 5th place person on any fairly accurate DPS list.

How do we know if this dps list is accurate? If your expectation is that every wws parse is going to have all of the dps within 5% of the 5th place person, I predict you're going to be disappointed a lot.

Q u o t e:
Why would i defend a rogue when he is not the topic of discussion atm...nice try

Because you are arguing the Ret paladin should be higher on the damage meters without considering why one Muti rogue is very high and another is lower. It probably has a lot to do with gear and skill. Yet for the Ret player (and bless him, because he does seem to know what he's doing) you assume that even though we don't know his gear or skill, he should be several slots higher because he's fighting undead, and yet...

Q u o t e:
This sad situation is on UNDEAD MOBS. Even pre 2.3 Retribution could pull good numbers on all-undead mobs... not anymore it seems.

For this character, that added an additional 6% or so to dps. If the player had not used those abilities, he might have used the mana on something else, so you can't even argue his dps would be 6% lower. I don't think "Ret should consistently top dps meters when fighting undead" is going to give us a good design.

I'm trying to make a few points about the limitations of analyzing a single set of data. As several of you have pointed out, these numbers are so different from the ones players will be generating when they have their own guilds, gear, enchants and gems that it's difficult to even argue what is right and wrong with these data.

I think one of the more relevant points is whether Ret paladins "gas out" of mana too quickly, especially relative to the other classes. This is something we'll look at a little more.