RSS feed2008-09-26 12:09:52
Dear Devs,
Contrary to popular belief, all most rogues want to do is make the game better. I don't deny there are a number of loud bad apples around here, just like there are in any class, nor will I deny that most rogues are biased towards their class as one would expect from human nature. However I can saftely say that the vast majority of the rogues here in beta are truly interested in making the game better for everyone. Unfortunately we feel we can't continue testing properly right now due to a severe lack of Dev feedback. But I have no any desire to cry about it, there's been enough of that already. This is a beta and we want to help you make the game better, that's why we're here. With this in mind I've compiled a list of questions and concerns for you to read and respond to in the hopes of making it as easy as possible for you.
For clarity, I've tried to give a complete description of the particular issue followed by the specific question that we would like to see answered for that issue. You only need answer the question I've posted, even if it's only with a simple nod, letting us know you understand the issue but have no answer to give us at the moment. However if you do have any more details to share, and any more discussion you can provide on the issue as a whole, we would certainly be most grateful.
If anyone in the rogue community has any important questions or concerns they feel needs to be answered by the devs feel free to post here. I'll be adding additional questions which come up to this post as needed. Bare in mind, you're welcome to ask anything you'd like but I'm only focusing on overall broad issues that affect all rogues. I'm trying to stay away from very specific questions about speicifc talents and abilities that only affect a portion of the rogue community. ( There is one exception to that below but only because it affects all rogues. )
Helping out
For the first question we'll keep it nice and simple. Like I said, we want to help, and we want to know what you need most to make the game better.
With all that in mind, what would you as developers like to see more testing on in terms of the rogue class specifically? What do you need the most rogue feedback on right now?
DPS + Utility = ???
Part of the paradigm shift in your design goals for Lich King is to make all players in a specific role be completely viable and comperable to other players with different classes. As far as rogues are concerned, this means that every single class that can DPS will be able to DPS at levels comperable to that of a rogue. The problem is that all classes can potentially DPS, and now all of them can do it as well as a rogue. However all of these classes still maintain a high degree of utility that the rogue is severely lacking.
For example, A Ret Pally and a Feral Kitty are both meant to be doing similar melee DPS as a rogue. However both these classes can still heal, and they can still rez (and battle rez for druids), and they can even tank a bit if required to do so. Even if their healing and tanking ability isn't as great, these abilities don't just disappear, they're still available to them if needed. Worse yet, even other "pure DPS" classes have seen more utility compared to the rogue. Warlock and Mage tanks used for certain encounters is nothing new. And Devs have gone on record to say that a properly speced Beast Mastery hunter could off tank or even main tank 5 man dungeons.
In exchange the only significant raid utility that Rogues have receives is Tricks of the Trade, which while it's a great ability, many of us feel it's not enough to warrent brining a rogue to a raid. Threat seems to be less of a burden in Lich King, and Hunters can already Misdirect, but from range, making it easier for them to pull things onto the tank.
Given what we feel is a lack of group utility of the rogue class, what do you see as the value of the rogue in a group/raid setting now that their DPS is available from any other class? And will you be giving rogues more utility to balance this?
Spec Viability
Along the same lines as the question above, but dealing in more details, we are concerned about how the various rogue trees will fare in the different aspects of the game. As part of this same paradigm shift we know you want to see all three rogue talent trees be viable in all aspects of the game, for both PvE and PvP. Already the Assasination tree is seen as a fairly viable spec for both PvE and PvP, but the Combat and Subtlety trees are currently much more polarized.
Part of the problem is that for a long time now both these trees have been labeled to a specific role. Combat has always been considered THE PvE tree, and Sub was considered THE PvP tree. Desptie this there have always been supporters of the the trees under different considtions. With the shift in Lich King, many Subtlety rogues long to see the tree become more viable in PvE, while many Combat Rogues long to see the tree become more viable in PvP. Even with all the changes we've seen thus far, no one feels we're quite there yet. On top of this there are still many people who want to continue to PvP with Subtlety, and many who want to continue to PvE with Combat. These rogues feel that introducing talents into these trees that do the opposite of their chosen playstyle will only serve to weaken the tree for them.
We want all rogue trees to be viable for PvE and PvP, but keep in mind "viable" doesn't simply mean "damage". If one tree doesn't do enough damage in a certain situation, there should be other things we can bring that makes us desireable in some way. This could be anything from more utility to more survivability, or maybe something completely different. But in the end the rogue is a DPS class, and all three specs need to be capabale of delivering the needed damage in every situation.
Simply put we all want to see all three trees as valid, desirable choices for whatever challenges the game might bring, limited only by our chosen playstyle and preferences.
With that in mind can you tell us any plans that you have to better close this PvE to PvP gap that we're seeing with certain trees? How do you plan to make all three trees viable across the board?
As a corralary, what do you see are the role and playstyle of each of the three rogue trees?
Needed Talents
I want to speak now of Relentless Strikes which remains a hot issue at the moment. Initialy it was a 1 point tier 3 talent in the Assasination tree. While not terribly easy to get to it wasn't particularly inaccessible since any build that really wanted this talent could get a number of very useful talents in the assasination tree along the way to this talent. No one ever felt they were wasting talent points getting it.
However you recongnized that the talent still felt like it was too needed and descided to make it more accessible. So you moved it to the subtlety tree and made it a 5 point tier 1 talent, thus making it immediately accessible to any spec. In addition I know you did this because you wanted the tier 1 talents in subtlety to be more desireable. Part of this included reducing the number of talent points needed to get the talents we might want, as well as putting a new desireable 5 point talent so that people would have more good choices early in the Sub tree to help them move deeper into the tree.
However rather then solving the problems you were trying to fix, this change has caused other more serious issues. For many people the talent remains very much needed, indeed it's downright mandatory in many rogue's eyes as the level of DPS possible with and without it are like night and day. And there is no situation in the game where a rogue wouldn't be better off speccing into this talent. However what people now see is that instead of having to spend 1 talent point for a must have talent, they now must spend 5. The talents in the Assasination tree are all still very desireable, and may rogues will continue to get those if possible, so they havn't really saved on any talent points. In fact the deeper Assasination poison talents have become very good to have due to the changes to poisons, but many builds that go deep into Combat and to some extent Subtlety find they simply cannot afford to reach these talents. Instead most rogue spec's feel more and more stuck, being force to get one too many must have talents.
The problem isn't with Relentless strikes alone. Dual Wield Specialization and Presicion, for example, are still seen as must have talents for PvE, but a number of builds, particularly deep subtlety builds, are effectively locked out of one or both of these talents. And deeper Combat talents, like Close Quarter Combat for dagger builds, are completely out of the question. It does seem that all three trees have must have talents early on, which rather then making them more accessible are instead making rogue specs less variable and more 'cookie cutter'.
Note Relenteless Strikes is unique in that it is felt it's needed by all specs for all situations at all times.
Even more frusterating is the knowledge that historically, whenever a class had a simmilar must have talent in one of their trees, we've consistently seen these talents moved to become a base class skill instead. But in the case of Relentless Strikes, which certainly fits this pattern, we see it becoming more cumbersome to aquire instead of less.
How do you plan to deal with talents which ware still considered all too needed by rogues, particularly in the case of Relentless Strikes? Is there any possibility of making Relentless Strikes a core class ability we can all train?
Thank you.
Contrary to popular belief, all most rogues want to do is make the game better. I don't deny there are a number of loud bad apples around here, just like there are in any class, nor will I deny that most rogues are biased towards their class as one would expect from human nature. However I can saftely say that the vast majority of the rogues here in beta are truly interested in making the game better for everyone. Unfortunately we feel we can't continue testing properly right now due to a severe lack of Dev feedback. But I have no any desire to cry about it, there's been enough of that already. This is a beta and we want to help you make the game better, that's why we're here. With this in mind I've compiled a list of questions and concerns for you to read and respond to in the hopes of making it as easy as possible for you.
For clarity, I've tried to give a complete description of the particular issue followed by the specific question that we would like to see answered for that issue. You only need answer the question I've posted, even if it's only with a simple nod, letting us know you understand the issue but have no answer to give us at the moment. However if you do have any more details to share, and any more discussion you can provide on the issue as a whole, we would certainly be most grateful.
If anyone in the rogue community has any important questions or concerns they feel needs to be answered by the devs feel free to post here. I'll be adding additional questions which come up to this post as needed. Bare in mind, you're welcome to ask anything you'd like but I'm only focusing on overall broad issues that affect all rogues. I'm trying to stay away from very specific questions about speicifc talents and abilities that only affect a portion of the rogue community. ( There is one exception to that below but only because it affects all rogues. )
Helping out
For the first question we'll keep it nice and simple. Like I said, we want to help, and we want to know what you need most to make the game better.
With all that in mind, what would you as developers like to see more testing on in terms of the rogue class specifically? What do you need the most rogue feedback on right now?
DPS + Utility = ???
Part of the paradigm shift in your design goals for Lich King is to make all players in a specific role be completely viable and comperable to other players with different classes. As far as rogues are concerned, this means that every single class that can DPS will be able to DPS at levels comperable to that of a rogue. The problem is that all classes can potentially DPS, and now all of them can do it as well as a rogue. However all of these classes still maintain a high degree of utility that the rogue is severely lacking.
For example, A Ret Pally and a Feral Kitty are both meant to be doing similar melee DPS as a rogue. However both these classes can still heal, and they can still rez (and battle rez for druids), and they can even tank a bit if required to do so. Even if their healing and tanking ability isn't as great, these abilities don't just disappear, they're still available to them if needed. Worse yet, even other "pure DPS" classes have seen more utility compared to the rogue. Warlock and Mage tanks used for certain encounters is nothing new. And Devs have gone on record to say that a properly speced Beast Mastery hunter could off tank or even main tank 5 man dungeons.
In exchange the only significant raid utility that Rogues have receives is Tricks of the Trade, which while it's a great ability, many of us feel it's not enough to warrent brining a rogue to a raid. Threat seems to be less of a burden in Lich King, and Hunters can already Misdirect, but from range, making it easier for them to pull things onto the tank.
Given what we feel is a lack of group utility of the rogue class, what do you see as the value of the rogue in a group/raid setting now that their DPS is available from any other class? And will you be giving rogues more utility to balance this?
Spec Viability
Along the same lines as the question above, but dealing in more details, we are concerned about how the various rogue trees will fare in the different aspects of the game. As part of this same paradigm shift we know you want to see all three rogue talent trees be viable in all aspects of the game, for both PvE and PvP. Already the Assasination tree is seen as a fairly viable spec for both PvE and PvP, but the Combat and Subtlety trees are currently much more polarized.
Part of the problem is that for a long time now both these trees have been labeled to a specific role. Combat has always been considered THE PvE tree, and Sub was considered THE PvP tree. Desptie this there have always been supporters of the the trees under different considtions. With the shift in Lich King, many Subtlety rogues long to see the tree become more viable in PvE, while many Combat Rogues long to see the tree become more viable in PvP. Even with all the changes we've seen thus far, no one feels we're quite there yet. On top of this there are still many people who want to continue to PvP with Subtlety, and many who want to continue to PvE with Combat. These rogues feel that introducing talents into these trees that do the opposite of their chosen playstyle will only serve to weaken the tree for them.
We want all rogue trees to be viable for PvE and PvP, but keep in mind "viable" doesn't simply mean "damage". If one tree doesn't do enough damage in a certain situation, there should be other things we can bring that makes us desireable in some way. This could be anything from more utility to more survivability, or maybe something completely different. But in the end the rogue is a DPS class, and all three specs need to be capabale of delivering the needed damage in every situation.
Simply put we all want to see all three trees as valid, desirable choices for whatever challenges the game might bring, limited only by our chosen playstyle and preferences.
With that in mind can you tell us any plans that you have to better close this PvE to PvP gap that we're seeing with certain trees? How do you plan to make all three trees viable across the board?
As a corralary, what do you see are the role and playstyle of each of the three rogue trees?
Needed Talents
I want to speak now of Relentless Strikes which remains a hot issue at the moment. Initialy it was a 1 point tier 3 talent in the Assasination tree. While not terribly easy to get to it wasn't particularly inaccessible since any build that really wanted this talent could get a number of very useful talents in the assasination tree along the way to this talent. No one ever felt they were wasting talent points getting it.
However you recongnized that the talent still felt like it was too needed and descided to make it more accessible. So you moved it to the subtlety tree and made it a 5 point tier 1 talent, thus making it immediately accessible to any spec. In addition I know you did this because you wanted the tier 1 talents in subtlety to be more desireable. Part of this included reducing the number of talent points needed to get the talents we might want, as well as putting a new desireable 5 point talent so that people would have more good choices early in the Sub tree to help them move deeper into the tree.
However rather then solving the problems you were trying to fix, this change has caused other more serious issues. For many people the talent remains very much needed, indeed it's downright mandatory in many rogue's eyes as the level of DPS possible with and without it are like night and day. And there is no situation in the game where a rogue wouldn't be better off speccing into this talent. However what people now see is that instead of having to spend 1 talent point for a must have talent, they now must spend 5. The talents in the Assasination tree are all still very desireable, and may rogues will continue to get those if possible, so they havn't really saved on any talent points. In fact the deeper Assasination poison talents have become very good to have due to the changes to poisons, but many builds that go deep into Combat and to some extent Subtlety find they simply cannot afford to reach these talents. Instead most rogue spec's feel more and more stuck, being force to get one too many must have talents.
The problem isn't with Relentless strikes alone. Dual Wield Specialization and Presicion, for example, are still seen as must have talents for PvE, but a number of builds, particularly deep subtlety builds, are effectively locked out of one or both of these talents. And deeper Combat talents, like Close Quarter Combat for dagger builds, are completely out of the question. It does seem that all three trees have must have talents early on, which rather then making them more accessible are instead making rogue specs less variable and more 'cookie cutter'.
Note Relenteless Strikes is unique in that it is felt it's needed by all specs for all situations at all times.
Even more frusterating is the knowledge that historically, whenever a class had a simmilar must have talent in one of their trees, we've consistently seen these talents moved to become a base class skill instead. But in the case of Relentless Strikes, which certainly fits this pattern, we see it becoming more cumbersome to aquire instead of less.
How do you plan to deal with talents which ware still considered all too needed by rogues, particularly in the case of Relentless Strikes? Is there any possibility of making Relentless Strikes a core class ability we can all train?
Thank you.
Kyirah
