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2008-10-03 15:19:19
Can we agree that we're all pretty worried?
So, a couple key issues that have not been addressed are still the main concerns for our dwindling class. WoTLK is due in a month's time, yet there are so many holes in our class that seem impossible to be fixed for release.

- How gimp the Subt tree has become, providing lackluster damage output and lackluster mobility due to the changes.

- The unnecessary change to Relentless Strikes when everyone can agree the prior was more viable.

- The massive PvE DPS drop we received when our "pure" class is competing against "hybrid" classes, eg:
Q u o t e:

Here's the breakdown from 2 perspectives:

#1 Warlock
#2 Balance Druid 3300
#3 Survival Hunter 3300
#4 Ret Paladin 2900
#5 Mutilate Rogue 2900
#6 Fury Warrior 2700
#7 Fire Mage 2300

Perspective 2:
#1 Balance Druid
#2 Ret Paladin
#3 Warlock
#4 Mutilate Rogue
#5 Survial Hunter

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s4/br0ns0n/WoWScrnShot_092408_233629.jpg


- Taking away Infectious Poisons, a fun and viable talent.

- All 51 point talents extremely dissapointing. HFB nerfed to oblivion, Murder Spree dealing laughable damage, and Shadow Dance becoming a hotkey nightmare. If these issues are not resolved, prepare to see nothing but hybrid specs, which Blizzard has said they wanted to stay away from.

- The drastic nerf to Mutilate damage, providing lackluster damage from an ability that costs 60 energy.

- Hemo doing subpar 500-600 damage on targets that have upwards of up to 22k health.

- The random Assassination talent nerfs, even ones that are currently on Live.

- Backstab still not a viable alternative even with 45 energy due to it's massive reliance on crit RNG that will forever be held down by Resilience.

I know we're suppose to be providing constructive feedback, and many of us have been, eg;
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9956645579&sid=2000
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10638060326&sid=2000
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10532272216&sid=2000

amongst many, many others that have been given no response. I see no point in providing class specific feedback / ideas when there is zero acknowledgment .

As "unrealistic" as all this seems, the fact of the matter is that we're as far down as Enh Shamans at the moment with the latest build. The only other class that is suffering as bad as us are Warriors, which is quite remarkable to see. Ret Paladins, Death Knights, Ice Mages, even Hunters providing crazy burst damage are all well-above the singular one-sided DPS-role Rogue class. We still lack utility, natural defenses, and mobility to even stand a chance.

The only real advantage Rogues bring is DPS, but what is the point of that when even "hybrid" classes can provide the exact same thing? There is nothing that makes Rogues unique anymore.

edit- Monumental post contributed by Blackfate:

Q u o t e:
After looking at the new raid composition feature on MMO-Champion, IMO its safe to say the rogue class needs to be taken back to the design table.


*Warrior - Plate - 2 Melee DPS trees - Tank tree*
1) Battle Shout
2) Commanding Shout
3) Rampage
4) Sunder Armor
5) Demoralizing shout
6) Trauma
7) Furious Attacks
8) Mortal Strike
9) Thunderclap
10) Blood frenzy

*Paladin - Plate - Melee DPS tree - Tank tree - Healing tree*
1) Blessing of might
2) Sanctified Retribution
3) Blessing of Sanctuary
4) Improved Devotion Aura
5) Judgements of the Wise
6) Blessing of Kings
7) Heart of the Crusader
8) Judgement of Wisdom
9) Judgements of the Just

*Druid - Leather - Melee DPS / Tank tree - Ranged DPS tree - Healing tree*
1) Improved Moonkin Form
2) Tree of Life
3) Leader of the Pack
4) Moonkin Aura
5) Mark of the Wild
6) Faerie Fire
7) Demoralizing Roar
8) Mangle
9) Infected Wounds
10) Insect Swarm
11) Earth and Moon
12) Improved Faerie Fire

*Death Knight - Plate - 2 Melee DPS trees - Tank tree?*
1) Horn of Winter
2) Abomination's Might
3) Improved Icy Talons
4) Icy Touch
5) Ebon Plague Bringer

*Shaman - Mail - Melee DPS tree - Ranged DPS tree - Healing tree*
1) Strength of Earth totem
2) Ancestral Healing
3) Unleased Rage
4) Windfury totem
5) Elemental Oath
6) Wrath of Air totem
7) Flametongue totem
8) Totem of Wrath

*Hunter - Mail - 3 Ranged DPS trees*
1) Trueshot Aura
2) Ferocious Inspiration
3) Hunting Party
4) Acid Spit
5) Sting
6) Aimed Shot
7) Scorpid Sting

*Priest - Cloth - Ranged DPS tree - 2 Healing trees*
1) Inspiration
2) Grace
3) Vampiric Touch
4) Improved Divine Spirit
5) Divine Spirit
6) Power Word: Fortitude
7) Misery

*Mage - Cloth - 3 Ranged DPS trees*
1) Arcane Intellect
2) Dampen Magic
3) Amplify Magic
4) Slow
5) Winter's Chill
6) Improved Scorch

*Warlock - Cloth - 3 Ranged DPS trees*
1) Blood Pact
2) Fel Intelligence
3) Demonic Pact
4) Curse of Recklessness
5) Curse of Weakness
6) Curse of Tongues
7) Curse of the Elements

*Rogue - Leather - 3 Melee DPS trees*
1) Expose Armor
2) Mind-numbing Poison
3) Master Poisoner
4) Wound Poison VII
5) Blood Poisoning


and the results for buffs / debuffs brought to the raid are....
Warrior - 10
Paladin - 9
Druid - 12
Death Knight - 5
Shaman - 8
Hunter - 7
Priest - 7
Mage - 6
Warlock - 7
Rogue - 5


Really now, this is basic math. It is very unlikely that rogues will be able to compete with other classes for raid spots given the DPS equalization + / - 5% while looking at what each class brings to a raid group. This isn't even taking into consideration conjured food / water, soul stones, health stones, battle rezzes, sheeps, traps, fears, snares, DMG shields, interrupts, AOE, misdirects or even survivability. This argument could be taken even a step further if the different variations of roles were considered such as the ability to tank, heal, or be able to range DPS. When you get down to it... the main theme that rogues had going for them was the glass cannon idea. Now that rogues no longer have the DPS advantage the math is extremely clear, they are on the bottom of the pile. The class has no other options than to perform Melee DPS. The class is tied with DKs for the lowest buffs / debuffs / utility brought to the raid.

Rogue Class
►+5% overall DMG in relation to other DPS classes
►low survivability
►low mobility
►inability to range DPS
►inability to Heal
►inability to tank
►lowest raid buffs / debuffs brought to raid
►very little / gimick raid utility
►heavily dependent on cool downs

GC, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out bud. Think we can take this back to the table and see if we cant do something better with it? In its current form, this has fail wrote all over it and isn't going to work the way Blizzard is disillusioned that it will. You cant take a class whose sole role was to DPS, then bring everyone up to their level and not give them more than what they are being given to compensate in order to remain competitive.

[ Post edited by Zeth ]
Avatar of Zeth
Zeth
2008-10-04 22:18:51
Re: Can we agree that we're all pretty pissed
Q u o t e:
hoping this isn't too nasty.

Well it was good for a few pages, but I'm having trouble finding a recent thread that stays that way for long. It's called Honor Among Thieves. You're supposed to stick together. Yes? Anyone? Hello?

Q u o t e:
Ok CG is posting for EVERYONE.. wouldnt u think a huge huge company would have class reps for each class so they can relay to the designers the needs and concerns
*nothing against CG, but she CANT do everyone for everyone and no way is she reading everything, thats just impossible!*


I assume you meant me. Crawlghoster? Catgrabber? Codgutter? I make it a point to read all the class forums. Yes, it takes a few hours. C'est la vie. I read some of the other forums when I have extra time. I read a lot of forums on other sites too.

We do have people, the community managers for one, who keep us appraised of the situation, point out good ideas, and suggest threads we may want to read. It is quite helpful. And yet, there is no substitute for wading into the ocean yourself. It's been an interesting experiment. Overall, most players seem to appreciate it, but it can also cause some angst when I don't address a particular concern or suggestion or don't spend my time evenly.

Q u o t e:
Do you even comprehend what the definition behind "hybrid" is? It means a core class that already has predetermined specific role, yet however can respec and do your one-and-only job of DPS, only better while still providing raid wide buffs and utility.


You can use whatever definition of hybrid you want, but if you want to use the same one as us, it is: a class that can do dps OR heal OR tank (and all 3 in a couple of cases). Note that hybrids can very rarely do more than one thing at a time. Usually they need to respec and swap gear. But a rogue, hunter, mage or warlock can never switch to tanking or healing. Therefore, if they can't do competitive dps, they're screwed. Some people use "hybrid" to mean "the class with the buffs or utility" but in our minds, all classes can do that now. You can argue that your buffs or utility aren't good enough of course, as every class does. :)

Q u o t e:
It is starting to look like TBC all over again. Not looking forward to a year of crap before they finally patch rogues.


Assuming you are talking about PvE, a big part of that in BC was the boss cleaves that were so deadly to melee and the necessity for crowd control that could pretty much only be done by a mage or priest. That did suck and it wasn't fair and we changed it. You shouldn't be walking into that situation again. Now you can argue that your dps isn't up to par, which is a valid concern (in the sense that I understand why you'd be worried about it, not in the sense that we think it's true). But it is also a concern voiced by probably every class at the moment.

Avatar of Ghostcrawler
Ghostcrawler
2008-10-04 23:24:43
Re: Can we agree that we're all pretty pissed
Q u o t e:
But even all that's besides the point. Everything will get tuned, eventually, and things will be ok. Timeframe? Who knows. Everyone felt that way about TBC rogues, but I found a few guilds and think I did OK. No glaives, but oh well.


Thanks for the mature attitude. I try to be honest in my answers, because I think you guys deserve it, and because maybe it will lead to you trusting me when I say we don't know or when we do something outlandish. So I'm honest when I say we made a lot of changes, and it will take some time to get everything sorted out. That doesn't mean Blizzard is abandoning our penchant for polish. It means that MMOs are big and complicated and that we'd be naive to claim we could forsee every possible thing that's going to happen between now and the next 12 months or so. But we're not going anywhere and the community is quick to point out potential problems, so we'll do whatever we can to keep the game awesome.

Q u o t e:
All that people really want is a direct answer to many of the dodged questions about specific talents - if any of our suggestions are even being considered. Don't even pretend like you don't know which ^.~ And I'm not gonna ask those questions, cuz you never want to answer them anyway.


Those kinds of questions take a long time to answer. My answers are usually pretty short, but then it leads to a long thread of why didn't we think of this option, or could we please try this other thing, or why are we so dumb. :) We do read the feedback though.

Q u o t e:
PS - thank god I always select all and copy my posts before I hit post. Another one would've been lost to this timeout thing =(


Yes, it is annyoing.

Edit: Just fixed busted quotes. That's all.

[ Post edited by Ghostcrawler ]
Avatar of Ghostcrawler
Ghostcrawler
2008-10-05 21:51:50
Re: Can we agree that we're all pretty pissed
Q u o t e:
GC when WotLK goes live will you continue to participate in the live forums and have other developers considered to take a more active role in the forums or is the signal to noise ratio just way too high in live forums and it's getting even a bit high now at this stage in beta?


I plan on shifting over to the live forums. We have a few ideas to try and handle the signal to noise ratio. Hopefully we won't be logged out every few seconds on Live and can make long posts. :)

Q u o t e:
I <3 u GC but I am really worried when my premade DK can solo lvl 80 elites right out of the box, finishing the fight at over 80% health, when my premade rogue can hardly touch the same mob.


The numbers aren't done. We changed an awful lot of combat mechanics and we're still adjusting things to get them right. Unholy death knights (I assume that's the spec you are talking about) have some nerfs coming (and I've already posted about them).

Don't feel like Lich King is a deadline. If anything, it's only a beginning. Even if we had everything absolutely 100% perfectly balanced to our liking, some smart player would figure out that if you combine this talent spec, with this elixir and this trinket and use this set bonus, then bam, your dps goes up by 200 points. That sort of thing is going to happen, and we're just going to have to adjust when it does. Balance is a work in progress, not a destination.

Q u o t e:
Sorry rogue class still doesnt have anything to offer a guild IMO.. if we cant tear thru mobs/bosses and etc. we have no need to be asked to join raids/groups or let alone guilds.. Sorry but after talking to many many GL's of various guilds.. WotLK raids will only support 1 rogue pre 25man raids... that leaves ALOT of ppl just dazed and confused to question what to do next.
O and if you ask me.. TotT isnt a buff or utility.. its nice to have but overall its nothing that will make GL's or whatever say OMG we need rogues!


I undestand your concern here. It's totally valid. But it's actually the "OMG we need X" mentality that we're trying to get away from. Even a 25-player raid stacked with healers is going to have ~15 slots for dps. Not every raid will have a rogue in one of those spots, but some will, and some will have 3 or 4. We want to restore flexibility back to the group. Our experience is that a lot of guilds are groups of friends, and it sucks when those groups have to sit out mage 3 and 4 just because "full on mages." If you have a group with exceptional rogues, great. Bring them. You shouldn't be punished for having too many good players.

Now maybe you're worried that battle rez or battle shout or whatever is still too good and stacks so well that every guild is going to switch to stacking, oh I don't know, 10 Ret pallies for their dps. If that happens, and we're convinced it's really an issue not just players experimenting, then we'll squash it. Because the goal is you bring ~15 dps, not that you bring 10 ret pallies. That violates the "OMG we need X" situation.

Finally, we realize there are guilds in the world that will sit out certain classes to min / max certain others on a per boss basis. But they already do that today. They have people respec in between fights and have people log in to buff the raid and then log again. Very few of the people posting on these forums are members of those guilds, and those that are already know what they're getting into. I think trying to get into those guilds is not the kind of thing most players are talking about when they express concern about the buff changs. For most players, I think what they are nervous about is that their unique buff earned them a spot in a raid. But in a land where we have tried to add raid viability to every spec, not to mention adding 3 more in the form of a new class, you can't all fit. And once we decided to let most buffs go raid wide, all of those buffs weren't going to stack anyway.

Q u o t e:
Then why is Blizzard rushing the release and making everyone panic? ive actually panic'd enough to honestly think about switching mains.


We're not rushing the release. See my point above. BC was in a very similar situation. The differences were A) we didn't announce it's release so far in advance -- we stuck with the "when it's ready" tag, and B) we didn't expose you to so much of the design churn.

Q u o t e:
Yup, I read that the same way as you did. Damage increase, not going to happen.


It's not very helpful for me to comment on that, because the tests we run are using changes and bug fixes you don't necessarily have yet. We think we've gotten two of the rogue trees up where they should be and we're working on the third. If I did a quick tour of the class forums, I could find "we are doing way too little dps" in probably 8 of them.

Q u o t e:
Hybrids that do dps equal to a rogue in fight a, throw on gear and take a dmg loss in fight b to get some extra healing in the group, and who go respec, get summoned back in 60 seconds, and tank fight c are indredibly useful to the person composing the raids. If a druid and a rogue do equivelent dmg, but the druid also can res in combat, he gets the nudge. Etc Etc Etc. Its not hard to see how utility and equivelant dmg makes hybrid better than straight dmg.


I'm not convinced we're going to see most serious raiding guilds switch over to 10 or more druids because of combat rez, but if they do, we'll do something about it. It's a useful ability -- don't get be wrong. But I've never seen a decent guild take a bad player just for another combat rez. I have seen them do it for Bloodlust, Windfury, Curse of Elements, or even Leader of the Pack though.

Q u o t e:
Maybe you just need to give us more/equivelant utility to a hybrid. Your already homogenizing the classes, whats a few more changes.


If we need to, we'll do just that. You are probably more convinced it's time for a change than we are. But if you're right, it will happen eventually.

Q u o t e:
And sorry, GC, but the nastiness is a result of being ignored for most of beta wrt communications, it's not you.


I appreciate it, but you shouldn't ever expect to see a blue post. There just aren't that many of them. There are hundreds of thousands of players for every one WoW designer. We just aren't going to be able to communicate at a rate that is going to be satisfying to most players... though I try my best. I know that if I drop in and answer something quickly or answer something of no consequence, then it stirs up the hornet's nest worse than if I hadn't posted at all.

Avatar of Ghostcrawler
Ghostcrawler