RSS feed2008-10-30 14:37:41
I posted this in the thread "Sigh" where you asked what questions I, but I decided to save you some time searching and made it into it's own thread.
Q u o t e:
These nerfs aren't game breaking and I hate them as much as you do but seriously there's no need to rage over them. I'd really like to get a hold of GC sometime to ask a few specific questions, because it seems as though every time i put a thread up here it either gets shot to the bottom because of a multitude of other threads, or somehow gets passed up.
Alright so i just got my post eaten by the forum monster, so lets try this again...
First. that should have been "aren't" not are.
Note: I think our dps at 70 currently, w/o the changes to RV and AoW is fine, I'm comfortable with my place on the damage meters, but I'm worried about where we'll be once the changes to those talents, along with our viability in PvP.
Alright now i know everyone has been voicing their opinions about the mana regen, but here are my thoughts on the situation. I tested it last night in Sunwell, now its probably not the best place to test it simply because there's a metric fuckton (i feel this term is highly appropriate) of aoe/splash damage being dealt in nearly every fight, short of perhaps brutallus himself (assuming you bubble burns). My dps was fine after the hit, i was still able to spam all my abilities no problem, the only fight i actually used SoC on was KJ just to make it easier on healers, but again my dps was top 3 worthy so it was no issue.
However, when it comes to pvp, our mana regen is very much lacking, and we're cornered basically into using JoW on every opponent when JoJ may be necessary or in most cases where i'd rather be using JoL to help mitigate some of the incoming damage. Mana burns and stings are a huge issue with us because with the current setup of the retribution paladin, when we're out of mana, we're out of mana, save for going and drinking.
I've seen many comparisons with our mana bar being compared to rage or even energy, and to be quite honest, their not even close in comparison. Here's the breakdown between the two, or rather how i see it, and i'm sure most, if not all rets would agree.
Rage:
You start with zero, however there are many ways to easily gain rage.
-Bloodrage
-Charge
-Incoming damage
-Hitting any target
So when you're out of rage, you're not completely useless because there are many ways that you can easily pick it back up.
Energy
Start at full, and you are limited, to some extent so you need to use it wisely and watch it, however dependent on the tree you go for PvP, you either gain extra energy for your disposal (Assassination Tree) or you gain ways to passively and actively gain more energy as you go (Combat Tree).
Assassination:
-Vigor (10 more energy)
-Quick Recovery (Finishing moves cost only 20% if they miss)
-Overkill (Abilities while stealthed and for 6 seconds after cost 10 less energy)
-Focused Attacks (Crit hits give 2 Energy in Return)
Combat:
-Adrenaline Rush (Energy Regen Increased by 100% for 15 seconds)
-Vitality (Passive Energy Regen increased by 25%)
-Combat Potency (Landed Offhand attacks return 15 energy, Scales amazingly with gear)
Rogues can simply LoS, run away, keep their targets incapacitated or attack their target and still regen energy. When they're out of energy, its not a life and death situation for them because Energy is always regenerating.
Mana (for Ret Paladins at least)
In its current state, when ret is out of mana, its out of mana. Easily susceptible to being mana burned which, with our pathetic mana pool, would only take 4 burns or 2 viper stings. Trying to cleanse is basically a joke as well, especially with stings having 30% resist rate. Our only ways to regen mana now are to JoW the target and the judge every 8 (9/10) when its up, and at 71 we can use divine plea, on a one minute cooldown.
Essentially, however, when we are out of mana, were out of mana. Judgments cost 5% of our base mana and with a hunter keeping us viper stung and a priest just mana burning when we get even the slightest bit of mana, there's no hope. Warlocks with drain mana is just as bad, because all that needs to be done is fear, spam drain and were done.
What I'm trying to get at is we need MORE ways to get our mana back, preferably ways that scale. Warriors rage scales with damage dealt, rogues scale with hit, but our mana regeneration is the same from the second we get 3/3 into Judgments of the Wise.
So my question to you would be, has it been discussed between the developers about our mana regeneration, and if it would be at all possible to have it scale? Scaling was a main portion of our problems in TBC, and rather not see it happen again if at all possible. Maybe some how incorporate successful melee swings returning mana (similar to combat potency), or perhaps % of our melee damage dealt returning mana (similar to rage return).
Right now our mana doesn't scale, and that's a big problem, its part of the reason why fresh 70s running around with greens and their merc sword or full s2 poorly gemmed and enchanted are going around just absolutely decimating people who are vastly better geared and skilled than them.
An alternative solution, in combination from some of the idea listed above, would be to add another component into Imp Judgments, something to the effect "Your judgments also cost 50/100% less mana". This idea would also help alleviate the mana issues that prot still has, freeing up another 5% of their mana if specced into it. I'm sure holy paladins wouldn't mind this change either, it would definitely benefit influence them to judge the boss much more often considering the haste the would gain from doing so.
My next question has to deal with Divine Storm.
It's our 51 point talent. 31/41/51 point talents have always been defining talents for classes, ret especially. Divine Storm was an unbelievably good idea for the class, it was a huge dps boost, and made it felt like we could actually do more than just press 2 buttons every 6/8 seconds. The damge being holy was awesome, it scaled very well, perhaps too well. However with it going back to melee damage, it is barely out damaging consecrate which is supposed to be a secondary damage ability.
The reason why it was hitting far to strong is because its base damage was far too strong and again another reason why fresh 70 ret and any idiot running around in full s2 were able to just wreck people who were in 350+ resil.
I know you've mentioned there may be a point at which you feel it could go back to holy, but frankly i don't see why it shouldn't go back. With raid boss armor taking a 10% increase in the xpac, DS will feel even more lackluster than it already does at 70. I'd like to propose bringing it back to holy damage, but reducing the damage dealt to something like 70% weapon damage (this has been suggested by many others) and then having it scale better with melee stats so that it gives players something to fear when they see retribution paladins.
I know you've been busy reading, but has something like this been considered? I'm sure you realize how we feel about Divine Storm being more or less just like a warriors whirlwind and why we are petitioning for this to go back to holy damage.
My final question and then i'll let you get back to working on the class, has to do with Righteous Vengence.
I know one of the goals in wrath has been to mellow out ret's burst and turn it into sustained damage, and I've got no issues whatsoever with removing the crit damage bonus talent (I mean, it sucks, but its something i can live with assuming what's replacing it is going to give ret a boost in sustained dps, which actually I'd prefer). However, in it's current state, it's ridiculously weak.
The dot that is produced from it seems to have an unusually high resist rate and only procs from two of our attacks, both which have a decently long cooldown (10 DS, 8 Judgment). In combination with resilience taking a double toll on this talent, it comes out, on top of being very weak in PvE, to have minimal worth in PvP as well. While it's nice that the dot wont break CC, it doesn't really benefit us much, and doesn't seem to work from enough of our offensive abilities.
The idea behind this talent is awesome, but I think we all feel this talent is far too narrow to be a 45 point talent. Has it been discussed to possibly make this unresistable/dispellable and to include crits from Crusader Strike as well? I think we all feel that it should include more of our attacks as it doesn't produce much in terms of dps from what we've lost between Art of War, Judgment/Seal nerf, and the change to Righteous Vengence.
That's it, sorry for the length, but i felt perhaps with the arguments backing the ideas you'd better see where we're coming from on these questions/suggestions. The math is already out there and with a bit more focused testing I think we can finally come as close to balancing ret as humanly posisble.
Thanks for you time,
Broseiden, King of the Brocean
Stonemaul (US)
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stonemaul&n=Broseiden
Q u o t e:
These nerfs aren't game breaking and I hate them as much as you do but seriously there's no need to rage over them. I'd really like to get a hold of GC sometime to ask a few specific questions, because it seems as though every time i put a thread up here it either gets shot to the bottom because of a multitude of other threads, or somehow gets passed up.
Q u o t e:
Go ahead and ask your questions, Hammertime. I want to get through all the name-calling and back to working on the class.
Alright so i just got my post eaten by the forum monster, so lets try this again...
First. that should have been "aren't" not are.
Note: I think our dps at 70 currently, w/o the changes to RV and AoW is fine, I'm comfortable with my place on the damage meters, but I'm worried about where we'll be once the changes to those talents, along with our viability in PvP.
Alright now i know everyone has been voicing their opinions about the mana regen, but here are my thoughts on the situation. I tested it last night in Sunwell, now its probably not the best place to test it simply because there's a metric fuckton (i feel this term is highly appropriate) of aoe/splash damage being dealt in nearly every fight, short of perhaps brutallus himself (assuming you bubble burns). My dps was fine after the hit, i was still able to spam all my abilities no problem, the only fight i actually used SoC on was KJ just to make it easier on healers, but again my dps was top 3 worthy so it was no issue.
However, when it comes to pvp, our mana regen is very much lacking, and we're cornered basically into using JoW on every opponent when JoJ may be necessary or in most cases where i'd rather be using JoL to help mitigate some of the incoming damage. Mana burns and stings are a huge issue with us because with the current setup of the retribution paladin, when we're out of mana, we're out of mana, save for going and drinking.
I've seen many comparisons with our mana bar being compared to rage or even energy, and to be quite honest, their not even close in comparison. Here's the breakdown between the two, or rather how i see it, and i'm sure most, if not all rets would agree.
Rage:
You start with zero, however there are many ways to easily gain rage.
-Bloodrage
-Charge
-Incoming damage
-Hitting any target
So when you're out of rage, you're not completely useless because there are many ways that you can easily pick it back up.
Energy
Start at full, and you are limited, to some extent so you need to use it wisely and watch it, however dependent on the tree you go for PvP, you either gain extra energy for your disposal (Assassination Tree) or you gain ways to passively and actively gain more energy as you go (Combat Tree).
Assassination:
-Vigor (10 more energy)
-Quick Recovery (Finishing moves cost only 20% if they miss)
-Overkill (Abilities while stealthed and for 6 seconds after cost 10 less energy)
-Focused Attacks (Crit hits give 2 Energy in Return)
Combat:
-Adrenaline Rush (Energy Regen Increased by 100% for 15 seconds)
-Vitality (Passive Energy Regen increased by 25%)
-Combat Potency (Landed Offhand attacks return 15 energy, Scales amazingly with gear)
Rogues can simply LoS, run away, keep their targets incapacitated or attack their target and still regen energy. When they're out of energy, its not a life and death situation for them because Energy is always regenerating.
Mana (for Ret Paladins at least)
In its current state, when ret is out of mana, its out of mana. Easily susceptible to being mana burned which, with our pathetic mana pool, would only take 4 burns or 2 viper stings. Trying to cleanse is basically a joke as well, especially with stings having 30% resist rate. Our only ways to regen mana now are to JoW the target and the judge every 8 (9/10) when its up, and at 71 we can use divine plea, on a one minute cooldown.
Essentially, however, when we are out of mana, were out of mana. Judgments cost 5% of our base mana and with a hunter keeping us viper stung and a priest just mana burning when we get even the slightest bit of mana, there's no hope. Warlocks with drain mana is just as bad, because all that needs to be done is fear, spam drain and were done.
What I'm trying to get at is we need MORE ways to get our mana back, preferably ways that scale. Warriors rage scales with damage dealt, rogues scale with hit, but our mana regeneration is the same from the second we get 3/3 into Judgments of the Wise.
So my question to you would be, has it been discussed between the developers about our mana regeneration, and if it would be at all possible to have it scale? Scaling was a main portion of our problems in TBC, and rather not see it happen again if at all possible. Maybe some how incorporate successful melee swings returning mana (similar to combat potency), or perhaps % of our melee damage dealt returning mana (similar to rage return).
Right now our mana doesn't scale, and that's a big problem, its part of the reason why fresh 70s running around with greens and their merc sword or full s2 poorly gemmed and enchanted are going around just absolutely decimating people who are vastly better geared and skilled than them.
An alternative solution, in combination from some of the idea listed above, would be to add another component into Imp Judgments, something to the effect "Your judgments also cost 50/100% less mana". This idea would also help alleviate the mana issues that prot still has, freeing up another 5% of their mana if specced into it. I'm sure holy paladins wouldn't mind this change either, it would definitely benefit influence them to judge the boss much more often considering the haste the would gain from doing so.
My next question has to deal with Divine Storm.
It's our 51 point talent. 31/41/51 point talents have always been defining talents for classes, ret especially. Divine Storm was an unbelievably good idea for the class, it was a huge dps boost, and made it felt like we could actually do more than just press 2 buttons every 6/8 seconds. The damge being holy was awesome, it scaled very well, perhaps too well. However with it going back to melee damage, it is barely out damaging consecrate which is supposed to be a secondary damage ability.
The reason why it was hitting far to strong is because its base damage was far too strong and again another reason why fresh 70 ret and any idiot running around in full s2 were able to just wreck people who were in 350+ resil.
I know you've mentioned there may be a point at which you feel it could go back to holy, but frankly i don't see why it shouldn't go back. With raid boss armor taking a 10% increase in the xpac, DS will feel even more lackluster than it already does at 70. I'd like to propose bringing it back to holy damage, but reducing the damage dealt to something like 70% weapon damage (this has been suggested by many others) and then having it scale better with melee stats so that it gives players something to fear when they see retribution paladins.
I know you've been busy reading, but has something like this been considered? I'm sure you realize how we feel about Divine Storm being more or less just like a warriors whirlwind and why we are petitioning for this to go back to holy damage.
My final question and then i'll let you get back to working on the class, has to do with Righteous Vengence.
I know one of the goals in wrath has been to mellow out ret's burst and turn it into sustained damage, and I've got no issues whatsoever with removing the crit damage bonus talent (I mean, it sucks, but its something i can live with assuming what's replacing it is going to give ret a boost in sustained dps, which actually I'd prefer). However, in it's current state, it's ridiculously weak.
The dot that is produced from it seems to have an unusually high resist rate and only procs from two of our attacks, both which have a decently long cooldown (10 DS, 8 Judgment). In combination with resilience taking a double toll on this talent, it comes out, on top of being very weak in PvE, to have minimal worth in PvP as well. While it's nice that the dot wont break CC, it doesn't really benefit us much, and doesn't seem to work from enough of our offensive abilities.
The idea behind this talent is awesome, but I think we all feel this talent is far too narrow to be a 45 point talent. Has it been discussed to possibly make this unresistable/dispellable and to include crits from Crusader Strike as well? I think we all feel that it should include more of our attacks as it doesn't produce much in terms of dps from what we've lost between Art of War, Judgment/Seal nerf, and the change to Righteous Vengence.
That's it, sorry for the length, but i felt perhaps with the arguments backing the ideas you'd better see where we're coming from on these questions/suggestions. The math is already out there and with a bit more focused testing I think we can finally come as close to balancing ret as humanly posisble.
Thanks for you time,
Broseiden, King of the Brocean
Stonemaul (US)
[ Post edited by Hammertime ]
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stonemaul&n=Broseiden
Hammertime
