RSS feed2008-10-08 16:26:39
Okay, lets try and do this as cordially as possible. If you want to post inflammatory, derogatory or offensive comments, or if you want to insult the Blues, do it in another thread. Maybe this one can stay constructive hunters talking about issues. (Chances of success 0.01%)
/cast Basic Campfire
Alright. The hunter community, or at least a very staggering percentage of us, feel like there is a huge disconnect between what we feel is fair and what you, as the developers, feel is fair. To say that its a chasm is a gigantic understatement. Its Un'goro Crater. Its Sholazar Basin. So maybe we can meet in the middle somewhere and have some discussion, not just disagreements, about the things that bother us.
This is a long list, so get some Deviate Delights and chill. We're keeping this civil.
---
Haste & Gear disconnects -
Much of the gear that's being dangled in front of us has a hefty supply of haste just loaded all over it. And those number crunching members of the Mail wearing community are a bit... concerned. Notice that I suggest its the Mail wearing community, because Enhancement Shaman seem to share our confusion about all this haste.
If this is a deliberate thing to make everything beyond t7+ gear look more appealing, then we'd pretty much just like you guys to come out and say it. As it is, we're being shown item with haste after item with haste and then turning around to show you some math that suggests that, unlike rogues and warriors, haste affects a very minimal portion of our damage output. It would be like putting strength on our gear. Yeah, it does something, but it doesn't do anything we want. Long story short, the community is bothered that our gear is loaded with a stat that doesn't affect enough of our damage.
---
The pesky dodge issue -
Okay, I'm sure you guys are tired of it, but I'm trying to make our concerns into cohesive, concise little snippets instead of aggressive posts accusing you of stealing all our kittens. We know you did it.
You guys came out and said, paraphrasing, "You have lower dodge because you will have more agility than everyone else." Okay, we follow what you're saying, but we question the logic in that from a lot of angles. A tanking class is not penalized in how many hitpoints they get from stamina because they are going to have a lot of that. Other casters aren't penalized because they are going to have a lot of intellect or a lot of spirit. Rogues don't get less benefit from hit and crit even though they are going to be nearly bleeding those stats. So its a little bothersome that one of our few defensive methods (oh, I'll get to you) starts at a negative and we get the least gain per agility.
We aren't asking to get more dodge to agility than everyone, but, I guess we all feel its unfair that we get such a huge penalty to our defense because "we're going to have agility."
---
Defense, or lack there of -
I am not alone when I say that the hunter class feels like it has less defense when compared to other classes. So I'm going to break down our biggest threats and our tools, with emphasis on what is good and what is bad about them. I'm trying to be objective.
Concern: Once a hunter is in melee, his combat effectiveness is very low due to dead zone, weak melee abilities and insufficient ways to get back to range. To be sure we have a number of options, but many do not work well enough. Our snares are weak compared to those of the melee classes, so escape is next to impossible.
Concern: Hunter class has no way to mitigate damage from a magic source.
Concern: Hunter class has no untalented interrupt.
Concern: The hunter pet is literally a paper plate.
---
Not yet in -
We've had a lot of attention this expansion, and a lot of other classes are bothered that we get all the Blue love. However, the community is pretty upset that, once again, we're getting a bunch of "we'll take care of that after the expansion ships" replies. We're green with envy that a new class is going to ship more complete. I mean, yeah, we're upset about that. Things like the bugs with our escape abilities, things like Trap Mastery being NYI until after the product goes retail, things like Aspect of the Viper being active only regen... we're just a bit concerned that we're the stepchildren in this relationship, again.
---
Mana regen & mana cost -
Not a single hunter I've talked to, to date, has spoken positively about the Aspect of the Viper change. We feel its going to really hurt us in arenas. We feel its really going to hurt our raid DPS. And its active regen. If we're on the move, if we're unable to shoot our target (which is a very common problem), we're stuck with our mana the way it is. All the other casters have the stats to support regeneration when they are on the move, not casting.
As cost of spells goes up, we're left in the cold feeling like we get very little value from Intellect compared to everyone else, and that we're going to be switching into 50% damage penalty mode far too often. Here is an example of what Intellect means to hunters vs. the other casters. Its a little lopsided
To a hunter, WITH Careful Aim:
To any other caster:
Some casters get more than that, whether it is more mana or more regeneration, or even more spellpower. We sort of feel like its just not as valuable as it should be too us. It used to affect Aspect of the Viper, but that connection is gone now.
So we have these expensive spells, and we have these smaller mana bars, while we get very little from intellect, when it comes time to regenerate that mana. For any fight above about 3 minutes, hunters are going to have to switch to a 50% penalty on damage output. That penalty is staggeringly close to the 75% penalty from Resurecction Sickness, and testing shows we'll be headed to AoTV a lot, to the tune of spending 20-30% of our fight with that penalty. We're a bit bothered. Maybe we can find some middle ground here.
---
I'm sure I could keep going, but this is where I sign off (for now) and let some other hunters write what they think. I'm sure I forgot something, or that I've missed someone's big problem. Just try and keep it civil and maybe we can get some responses, or at least let the designers and managers know that we're not happy about what we've been handed.
That's my 2 cents.
/cast Basic Campfire
Alright. The hunter community, or at least a very staggering percentage of us, feel like there is a huge disconnect between what we feel is fair and what you, as the developers, feel is fair. To say that its a chasm is a gigantic understatement. Its Un'goro Crater. Its Sholazar Basin. So maybe we can meet in the middle somewhere and have some discussion, not just disagreements, about the things that bother us.
This is a long list, so get some Deviate Delights and chill. We're keeping this civil.
---
Haste & Gear disconnects -
Much of the gear that's being dangled in front of us has a hefty supply of haste just loaded all over it. And those number crunching members of the Mail wearing community are a bit... concerned. Notice that I suggest its the Mail wearing community, because Enhancement Shaman seem to share our confusion about all this haste.
If this is a deliberate thing to make everything beyond t7+ gear look more appealing, then we'd pretty much just like you guys to come out and say it. As it is, we're being shown item with haste after item with haste and then turning around to show you some math that suggests that, unlike rogues and warriors, haste affects a very minimal portion of our damage output. It would be like putting strength on our gear. Yeah, it does something, but it doesn't do anything we want. Long story short, the community is bothered that our gear is loaded with a stat that doesn't affect enough of our damage.
---
The pesky dodge issue -
Okay, I'm sure you guys are tired of it, but I'm trying to make our concerns into cohesive, concise little snippets instead of aggressive posts accusing you of stealing all our kittens. We know you did it.
You guys came out and said, paraphrasing, "You have lower dodge because you will have more agility than everyone else." Okay, we follow what you're saying, but we question the logic in that from a lot of angles. A tanking class is not penalized in how many hitpoints they get from stamina because they are going to have a lot of that. Other casters aren't penalized because they are going to have a lot of intellect or a lot of spirit. Rogues don't get less benefit from hit and crit even though they are going to be nearly bleeding those stats. So its a little bothersome that one of our few defensive methods (oh, I'll get to you) starts at a negative and we get the least gain per agility.
We aren't asking to get more dodge to agility than everyone, but, I guess we all feel its unfair that we get such a huge penalty to our defense because "we're going to have agility."
---
Defense, or lack there of -
I am not alone when I say that the hunter class feels like it has less defense when compared to other classes. So I'm going to break down our biggest threats and our tools, with emphasis on what is good and what is bad about them. I'm trying to be objective.
Concern: Once a hunter is in melee, his combat effectiveness is very low due to dead zone, weak melee abilities and insufficient ways to get back to range. To be sure we have a number of options, but many do not work well enough. Our snares are weak compared to those of the melee classes, so escape is next to impossible.
- Tools to deal: Wing Clip, Disengage, Frost Trap, Deterrance, Freezing Trap, Master's Call, Scatter (with spec), Intimidation (with spec).
Wing Clip as a snare is very weak. Not only is it weaker than those of the melee classes, but it costs far and away too much to cast. Its still mandatory, but it is not effective enough.
Disengage, if it works properly and is off the GCD is probably your best bet to escape. If it were on the GCD, its going to be very hard to juggle while trying to do everything else we're trying to do. As is, it is not removing snares and sometimes only throwing us a few feet due to a snare.
Master's Call would be the next choice, but its mostly not working, and we understand that's a bug. Problem is, if it doesn't ship fixed, we're going to be in a very bad spot for the arena season 5 which is a big deal to a lot of people. We've been in a bad state for 4 previous, as you already know. That bugs us.
Frost Trap is probably the next best choice to escape, once it arms, which is feeling a lot better than it used to, but still has a horribly low arming radius. This is a problem with all traps, and I'll get to that later.
Deterrance gives you a bit more chance to survive the assault of the pesky rogue, but does nothing to recover from the problem, being stuck here.
Freezing Trap's arming time feels good, but again the radius feels too small, and is easily dispelled long before our snares are expiring. As these still break on damage, its like trying to trap someone in a silk web, which is actually probably more effective than our giant blocks of ice.
Scatter Shot is only this low because its not fair to assume everyone has it (though we *all* feel it should be baseline). It works wonders. Too bad it costs talent points.
Intimidation, again, is low on the list because its spec dependent. A short duration stun, if the pet is near (or alive), is a great way to escape. Too bad it costs talent points.
Concern: Hunter class has no way to mitigate damage from a magic source.
- Tools to deal: Run into melee and trap the offending magic user. Yeah, that's it. Or use a pillar. No seriously. You can see why we're a little miffed here.
Concern: Hunter class has no untalented interrupt.
- Tools to deal: Beast Mastery hunters get Intimidation, Survival hunters have Scatter and Marksmanship get Silencing Shot. Doubling up the reasons to use Intimidation (to escape melee and to silence a caster) leaves this spell on cooldown very often when we need it most. Scatter is very often used in the same fashion, leaving it on cooldown when it would be needed most. Silencing shot's cooldown is a bit too long. Either way, our only interrupts are talented, and we find that to be kind of a problem.
Concern: The hunter pet is literally a paper plate.
- Tools to deal: Mend pet and pray. I'm sad to say that I just don't think my pet under any circumstance is very durable. We've expressed our concerns and we understand you guys are trying to do something. We just seem to disagree about what that something is.
---
Not yet in -
We've had a lot of attention this expansion, and a lot of other classes are bothered that we get all the Blue love. However, the community is pretty upset that, once again, we're getting a bunch of "we'll take care of that after the expansion ships" replies. We're green with envy that a new class is going to ship more complete. I mean, yeah, we're upset about that. Things like the bugs with our escape abilities, things like Trap Mastery being NYI until after the product goes retail, things like Aspect of the Viper being active only regen... we're just a bit concerned that we're the stepchildren in this relationship, again.
---
Mana regen & mana cost -
Not a single hunter I've talked to, to date, has spoken positively about the Aspect of the Viper change. We feel its going to really hurt us in arenas. We feel its really going to hurt our raid DPS. And its active regen. If we're on the move, if we're unable to shoot our target (which is a very common problem), we're stuck with our mana the way it is. All the other casters have the stats to support regeneration when they are on the move, not casting.
As cost of spells goes up, we're left in the cold feeling like we get very little value from Intellect compared to everyone else, and that we're going to be switching into 50% damage penalty mode far too often. Here is an example of what Intellect means to hunters vs. the other casters. Its a little lopsided
To a hunter, WITH Careful Aim:
- 1 Int = 15 mana, 1 ap
To any other caster:
- 1 Int = 15 mana, increased crit chance, increased regeneration
Some casters get more than that, whether it is more mana or more regeneration, or even more spellpower. We sort of feel like its just not as valuable as it should be too us. It used to affect Aspect of the Viper, but that connection is gone now.
So we have these expensive spells, and we have these smaller mana bars, while we get very little from intellect, when it comes time to regenerate that mana. For any fight above about 3 minutes, hunters are going to have to switch to a 50% penalty on damage output. That penalty is staggeringly close to the 75% penalty from Resurecction Sickness, and testing shows we'll be headed to AoTV a lot, to the tune of spending 20-30% of our fight with that penalty. We're a bit bothered. Maybe we can find some middle ground here.
---
I'm sure I could keep going, but this is where I sign off (for now) and let some other hunters write what they think. I'm sure I forgot something, or that I've missed someone's big problem. Just try and keep it civil and maybe we can get some responses, or at least let the designers and managers know that we're not happy about what we've been handed.
That's my 2 cents.
[ Post edited by Skagul ]
Skagul
