RSS feed2009-07-17 01:38:26
I found this post on us PTR forums and thought idd post it here as i totally agree and support what the original poster is trying to say.(ruca,maelstrom US)
Retribution has THREE damaging seals to choose from. Seal of Vengeance, Seal of Command and yes Seal of Righteousness.. This thread is about Seal of Command and its inferiority to both SoV and SoR, how SoV out performs Command in every situation on paper and in-game testing and how, well... how even Righteousness out performs Command. Facts, testing, data, strategies etc below...
Let me first outline the changes:
Seal of Command [OLD]
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Q u o t e:
Chance to deal [0.45 * mw + 0.1035 * SPH] additional Holy damage.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal [0.24 * mw + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH] Holy damage. This attack will always be a critical strike if the target is stunned or incapacitated.
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Seal of Command [NEW]
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Q u o t e:
All melee attacks deal [0.36 * mw] additional Holy damage.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal [0.19 * mw + 0.08 * AP + 0.13 * SPH] Holy damage.
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Changes made:
1. Seal does damage every swing.
2. New Command deals 20% less seal and judgment damage than the Old Command.
3. Judgment no longer is guaranteed crit on stunned/incapacitated targets.
My Input:
1. With the removal of Seal of Blood, one can only assume this change to Command was made to replace Blood as the damaging seal of choice. This is a great change in Seal of Commands mechanics, the chance to proc had made it inferior to Seal of Blood and has been long outdated.
2. The new Command deals 22% less seal damage and 32% less judgment damage than Seal of Blood. Command already had worse coefficients than Blood, why bring it down even more? What worries me even more, is that this nerf makes SoComm essentially the same as SoR. And what worries me even further is that SoR judgment damage is double SoComm. (tests shown below)
3. This effectively removes the only benefit/utility the seal gave for controllable burst in PvP.
With the removal of Seal of Blood, and the hefty nerfs to Command. I cannot see Command replacing Blood when Vengeance is so much better. (below)
Seal of Vengeance [OLD]
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Q u o t e:
Attacks apply Holy Vengeance, which deals [(0.013 * SPH + 0.025 * AP) * 5] additional Holy damage over 15 sec. Stacks 5 times.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal [1 + 0.22 * SPH + 0.14 * AP] Holy damage to an enemy, increased by 10% for each application of Holy Vengeance on the target.
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Seal of Vengeance [NEW]
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Q u o t e:
Attacks apply Holy Vengeance, which deals [(0.013 * SPH + 0.025 * AP) * 5] additional Holy damage over 15 sec. Stacks 5 times. Once stacked to 5 times, each of the Paladin's attacks also deals 33% weapon damage as additional Holy damage. Criticals deal double damage.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal [1 + 0.22 * SPH + 0.14 * AP] Holy damage to an enemy, increased by 10% for each application of Holy Vengeance on the target.
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Changes made:
1. 5x Holy Vengeance DoT needed in order to deal seal damage.
2. Seal criticals dealing 200% damage
My Input:
1. The restriction on needing stacks to do seal damage was added as a draw back to use this seal for every situation and a great way to control Retributions upfront burst damage from the get go. Now we basically have a wind up before we can do decent damage.
2. Seal of Vengeance damage is 3% lower than Seal of Command, however, the HV (DoT) puts it over the top by a large margin.
MY STATS: (buffed with might only)
Weapon Damage = 2107 - 2474 (2290 = median)
Attack Power = 4902
Spell Power = 1505
5/5 Seals of the Pure (15% increase SoV/JoV damage)
Seal of Command:
SoC = [0.36 * {2290}] = 824.40
JoC = [0.19 * {2290} + 0.08 * {4902} + 0.25 * {1505}] = 1203.51
Seal of Vengeance:
SoV = [0.33 * {2290}] = 755.7 * 1.15 (SotP) = 869.055
HV (DoT) = [(0.013 * {1505} + 0.025 * {4902}) * 5] = 710.575
JoV = [(1 + 0.22 * {1505} + 0.14 * {4902}) * 1.5] = 1526.07 * 1.15 (SotP) = 1754.9805
Seal of Righteousness:
SoR = [3.6 * (0.022 * 4902 + 0.044 * 1505)] = 626.6304 * 1.15 (SotP) = 720.62
JoR = [1 + 0.2 * 4902 + 0.32 * 1505] = 1462 * 1.15 (SotP) = 1681.3
Numbers above show with and without Seals of the Pure (15% SoR/SoV and JoR/JoV damage).
SoV out damages SoComm by a large margin, with the HV (DoT) damage added to Seal of Vengeance you can see the seal does roughly ~90% more damage than Seal of Command... and Judgment of Vengeance doing ~31% more damage than Judgment of Command.
SoComm seals do slightly more damage than SoR, but SoR Judgment damage blows SoComm Judgment damage out of the water by a large margin. (This, coming from what Blizz states is the Tanking seal of choice). Why does a tanking seal out perform our 11 point dps seal in PvP? SoR seals do not crit, but the judgments do. With 5/5 Seals of the Pure... SoR judgments are quite a bit higher than that of SoComm. In situations where I am unable to use SoV due to kite issues or others... I would use SoR purely for the increase judgment damage over SoComm. For more burst and to help make sure my judgments land or do not get absorbed causing no mana back from JotW (my testing below).
MY TESTING: two 5 minute tests with each seal. These are the average hits/crits with 5/5 Seals of the Pure.
Command: Average:[Hit], [Crit]
SoC = [912], [1896]
JoC = [1344],[3053]
Vengeance: Average:[Hit], [Crit]
SoV = [944], [2026]
HV(DoT) = [1086]
JoV = [2813],[6158]
Righteousness: Average:[Hit], [Crit]
SoR = [931], [ -- ]
JoR = [2605],[5101]
I believe the idea to remove Seal of Blood was premature and not thought out throughly.
You change SoComm, making it identical to SoB without the recoil, but...
you nerf rets damage going from SoB to SoComm by 22% seal damage and 32% judgment damage, so...
you have essentially made SoComm into a worse version of Seal of Righteousness...
How, why, when do you see us using SoComm in it's current state. Why does it even exist.
PvE: Seal of Vengeance.
The only time I'd possibly use a different seal is for quick AoE trash that dies under 15sec... And for this, I can use Righteousness and spend my extra talent point saved from SoComm somewhere more productive.
PvP: Seal of Vengeance. / Seal of Righteousness
"...But, what about having to keep the DoT up, what if it drops off and we have to waste precious time again applying it..."
The positives out weight the negatives for using this seal in PvP.
It takes 4-5sec to re apply the 5 stack, it ticks for 1k damage, wastes the healers mana if they spam dispel to remove the debuff, makes rogues waste cloak or run away to restealth, allows for more damage from judgments...
If it becomes to much trouble keeping HV DoT up from SoV i would switch over to SoR for the extra judgment damage and spend my extra talent point saved from SoComm somewhere more productive.
Another negative would be the possibility of not being able to Repentance except as an interrupt, in 1v1. oh well.
To conclude, all I have to say is... Command needs something. The mechanic change was good. Now if you want us to actually use it with its damage been nerfed TO THE GROUND... you have to give command something that will set it apart from Righteousness. Because right now as Command stands, it is inferior to Righteousness, which is sad.
TL;DR:
Seal of Command mechanics changes - good
Seal of Commands damage is lacking and brings zero usefulness in PvP.
Righteousness = Command (without seal crits and with double judgment damage)
Seal of Command needs something to set it apart from Righteousness. If you want people to use Command you have to give it something... anything... A snare, A chance to stun, A chance to proc a second seal, judgment causing MS effect... something... anything that we have been asking for the last five years will suffice.
SoV > SoR > SoC
Seal of Vengeance is THE seal going to be used by all Rets in both PvP and PvE.
Retribution has THREE damaging seals to choose from. Seal of Vengeance, Seal of Command and yes Seal of Righteousness.. This thread is about Seal of Command and its inferiority to both SoV and SoR, how SoV out performs Command in every situation on paper and in-game testing and how, well... how even Righteousness out performs Command. Facts, testing, data, strategies etc below...
Let me first outline the changes:
Seal of Command [OLD]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
Chance to deal [0.45 * mw + 0.1035 * SPH] additional Holy damage.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal [0.24 * mw + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH] Holy damage. This attack will always be a critical strike if the target is stunned or incapacitated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seal of Command [NEW]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
All melee attacks deal [0.36 * mw] additional Holy damage.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal [0.19 * mw + 0.08 * AP + 0.13 * SPH] Holy damage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Changes made:
1. Seal does damage every swing.
2. New Command deals 20% less seal and judgment damage than the Old Command.
3. Judgment no longer is guaranteed crit on stunned/incapacitated targets.
My Input:
1. With the removal of Seal of Blood, one can only assume this change to Command was made to replace Blood as the damaging seal of choice. This is a great change in Seal of Commands mechanics, the chance to proc had made it inferior to Seal of Blood and has been long outdated.
2. The new Command deals 22% less seal damage and 32% less judgment damage than Seal of Blood. Command already had worse coefficients than Blood, why bring it down even more? What worries me even more, is that this nerf makes SoComm essentially the same as SoR. And what worries me even further is that SoR judgment damage is double SoComm. (tests shown below)
3. This effectively removes the only benefit/utility the seal gave for controllable burst in PvP.
With the removal of Seal of Blood, and the hefty nerfs to Command. I cannot see Command replacing Blood when Vengeance is so much better. (below)
Seal of Vengeance [OLD]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
Attacks apply Holy Vengeance, which deals [(0.013 * SPH + 0.025 * AP) * 5] additional Holy damage over 15 sec. Stacks 5 times.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal [1 + 0.22 * SPH + 0.14 * AP] Holy damage to an enemy, increased by 10% for each application of Holy Vengeance on the target.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seal of Vengeance [NEW]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
Attacks apply Holy Vengeance, which deals [(0.013 * SPH + 0.025 * AP) * 5] additional Holy damage over 15 sec. Stacks 5 times. Once stacked to 5 times, each of the Paladin's attacks also deals 33% weapon damage as additional Holy damage. Criticals deal double damage.
Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal [1 + 0.22 * SPH + 0.14 * AP] Holy damage to an enemy, increased by 10% for each application of Holy Vengeance on the target.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Changes made:
1. 5x Holy Vengeance DoT needed in order to deal seal damage.
2. Seal criticals dealing 200% damage
My Input:
1. The restriction on needing stacks to do seal damage was added as a draw back to use this seal for every situation and a great way to control Retributions upfront burst damage from the get go. Now we basically have a wind up before we can do decent damage.
2. Seal of Vengeance damage is 3% lower than Seal of Command, however, the HV (DoT) puts it over the top by a large margin.
MY STATS: (buffed with might only)
Weapon Damage = 2107 - 2474 (2290 = median)
Attack Power = 4902
Spell Power = 1505
5/5 Seals of the Pure (15% increase SoV/JoV damage)
Seal of Command:
SoC = [0.36 * {2290}] = 824.40
JoC = [0.19 * {2290} + 0.08 * {4902} + 0.25 * {1505}] = 1203.51
Seal of Vengeance:
SoV = [0.33 * {2290}] = 755.7 * 1.15 (SotP) = 869.055
HV (DoT) = [(0.013 * {1505} + 0.025 * {4902}) * 5] = 710.575
JoV = [(1 + 0.22 * {1505} + 0.14 * {4902}) * 1.5] = 1526.07 * 1.15 (SotP) = 1754.9805
Seal of Righteousness:
SoR = [3.6 * (0.022 * 4902 + 0.044 * 1505)] = 626.6304 * 1.15 (SotP) = 720.62
JoR = [1 + 0.2 * 4902 + 0.32 * 1505] = 1462 * 1.15 (SotP) = 1681.3
Numbers above show with and without Seals of the Pure (15% SoR/SoV and JoR/JoV damage).
SoV out damages SoComm by a large margin, with the HV (DoT) damage added to Seal of Vengeance you can see the seal does roughly ~90% more damage than Seal of Command... and Judgment of Vengeance doing ~31% more damage than Judgment of Command.
SoComm seals do slightly more damage than SoR, but SoR Judgment damage blows SoComm Judgment damage out of the water by a large margin. (This, coming from what Blizz states is the Tanking seal of choice). Why does a tanking seal out perform our 11 point dps seal in PvP? SoR seals do not crit, but the judgments do. With 5/5 Seals of the Pure... SoR judgments are quite a bit higher than that of SoComm. In situations where I am unable to use SoV due to kite issues or others... I would use SoR purely for the increase judgment damage over SoComm. For more burst and to help make sure my judgments land or do not get absorbed causing no mana back from JotW (my testing below).
MY TESTING: two 5 minute tests with each seal. These are the average hits/crits with 5/5 Seals of the Pure.
Command: Average:[Hit], [Crit]
SoC = [912], [1896]
JoC = [1344],[3053]
Vengeance: Average:[Hit], [Crit]
SoV = [944], [2026]
HV(DoT) = [1086]
JoV = [2813],[6158]
Righteousness: Average:[Hit], [Crit]
SoR = [931], [ -- ]
JoR = [2605],[5101]
I believe the idea to remove Seal of Blood was premature and not thought out throughly.
You change SoComm, making it identical to SoB without the recoil, but...
you nerf rets damage going from SoB to SoComm by 22% seal damage and 32% judgment damage, so...
you have essentially made SoComm into a worse version of Seal of Righteousness...
How, why, when do you see us using SoComm in it's current state. Why does it even exist.
PvE: Seal of Vengeance.
The only time I'd possibly use a different seal is for quick AoE trash that dies under 15sec... And for this, I can use Righteousness and spend my extra talent point saved from SoComm somewhere more productive.
PvP: Seal of Vengeance. / Seal of Righteousness
"...But, what about having to keep the DoT up, what if it drops off and we have to waste precious time again applying it..."
The positives out weight the negatives for using this seal in PvP.
It takes 4-5sec to re apply the 5 stack, it ticks for 1k damage, wastes the healers mana if they spam dispel to remove the debuff, makes rogues waste cloak or run away to restealth, allows for more damage from judgments...
If it becomes to much trouble keeping HV DoT up from SoV i would switch over to SoR for the extra judgment damage and spend my extra talent point saved from SoComm somewhere more productive.
Another negative would be the possibility of not being able to Repentance except as an interrupt, in 1v1. oh well.
To conclude, all I have to say is... Command needs something. The mechanic change was good. Now if you want us to actually use it with its damage been nerfed TO THE GROUND... you have to give command something that will set it apart from Righteousness. Because right now as Command stands, it is inferior to Righteousness, which is sad.
TL;DR:
Seal of Command mechanics changes - good
Seal of Commands damage is lacking and brings zero usefulness in PvP.
Righteousness = Command (without seal crits and with double judgment damage)
Seal of Command needs something to set it apart from Righteousness. If you want people to use Command you have to give it something... anything... A snare, A chance to stun, A chance to proc a second seal, judgment causing MS effect... something... anything that we have been asking for the last five years will suffice.
SoV > SoR > SoC
Seal of Vengeance is THE seal going to be used by all Rets in both PvP and PvE.
[ Post edited by Divinemartyr ]
Divinemartyr
